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Should We Fish Pre-Spawn Bass? | Outdoor Journal Radio ep. 120
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Dec 2, 2024
This week on Outdoor Journal Radio, Ang and Pete are joined by Dr. Steven Cooke to get into the science of Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass, including a lengthy discussion on whether we should be fishing them before their spawn! First, however, a bit of housekeeping was in order. Topics discussed included: Fan mail from T. Nugent; our new hoodies; how golf course fish get so big; and strange things we've found in fish stomachs. With those matters out of the way, Dr. Cooke joins the show from his Quebec City hotel room! Topics discussed included: Chinese fish management; swimming with spawning bass; unenforceable laws; closing areas rather than seasons; Canada vs. USA bass management; how to avoid deep hooks; bass fatherhood; getting students to guard bass nests; and much more! To never miss an episode of Outdoor Journal Radio, be sure to like, subscribe, and leave a review on your favourite podcast app! Thank you to today's sponsor! Invasive Species Centre - Protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species
View Video Transcript
0:00
[Music] and now another exciting episode in The Adventures of Outdoor Journal
0:06
radio well Howdy Folks thank you for joining us once again I'm Angel Lola he is Peter Bowman hi Peter Peter G Bowman
0:15
Peter G B that the G stands for G oh good what else would it stand fredd
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remember Fred sford Freddy G Stanford and the g stands for gorgeous he'd have all kinds of
0:27
different G's for him welcome to the show love that show by the way remember s son oh my God was that a good show God
0:33
was there anything better on God fly today would that even fly today you think yeah I think so you think yeah cuz
0:41
they were well not really cuz that would think about what they were all they were the opposite of
0:48
Archie right right that whole Sanford Sanford and Archie were were they
0:54
crossed over somehow too I think there was a wasn't there characters that crossed over into might have been but
1:00
they were totally opposite in their viewpoints about other folks if you I
1:05
just like I just like Fred's uh Fred's uh opinion on Aunt
1:11
Esther so much anybody go back and look for sord son look at the Fred the Fred
1:16
sord aner fights and battles oh my God they were so good uh great program today
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we're going to have a little fish talk happening here a little later on
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the good friend Dr St cook will be joining us uh for those of you who don't
1:32
know uh Dr step cook well let me tell you there's a lot to find out about him
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uh he is a uh biology professor at Carlton University but he's been working in so many projects probably the only
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guy I know that has uh 700 documented works that are peer reviewed papers that
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is correct that's correct number that's 700 at least insane anyways he's good at
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what he does and he loves fish he loves talking fish but he also fishes and that's nice bonus isn't it yeah nice
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real nice bonus yeah um he will be joining us a little later on not sure what part of the world he'd be in but I
2:11
know he was in China recently so we'll find out when uh he's a traveler he sure is uh before we get to all that how
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about store fishing Canada store shop. fishing canada.com we got all those we got all the regular stuff but we got
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those new hoodies come in the those guys right there H yeah are hot we have a
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walleye we have a Musky and we have a large M bass Walle yeah so and they all
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look fantastic look at that kind of a new look for us yeah we we've delved away it was very hard to pull this guy
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away from our logo we had to get you know get the hook on them and bl like that we still have the logo buy you can
2:49
buy a hoodie with just no no but this one doesn't have the no this this was read designing I'm say it took you a lot
2:57
to the arm wrestling took a l we took two of us put your arm down this was the Ian muture uh uh version of uh the
3:05
fishing Canada logo re because that's what they do they reinterpret I thought he made that for us is he get a cut on
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that cuz he'd like to they they reinterpret things there yes right so
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we're re interpreting the fishing C I like the look of it it's cool it's hot a
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little bit of scientific name underneath there too you know what I mean like just add a little bit of uh intelligence to
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our name all of the new uh t-shirts the summer wear is coming in as well as we
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speak so show off your guns boys right that that too uh I don't
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know God all right uh let's move on to listener feedback how about that yes
3:49
this comes from Thomas nent via email whoa whoa is that t nen or Teddy Nan
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Teddy G nent the G stands for greatest guitar player of all time that's what he' tell you he's not but he's good I
4:03
used to be an avid Ted doent fan I watch I saw him in in uh Maple Leaf Gardens
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years and years years years year ago and he came in he came in with his his loin cloth on his his leopard skinn loin
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cloth all on the shorts and his guitar and he's coming on swinging in a Vine like Tarzan across the
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stage playing his guitar Teddy oh yeah great Entertainer I'll tell you that quick the hunter too eh he he uh he
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loves his hunting so uh I I was going to call him an activist but that would not
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he's he's he's a good representation for The Hunting Community absolutely and the conservation Community absolutely ABS I
4:41
heard an interesting one he said he got so many deer in his property that he when he shoots a deer now when he harvests a deer he just keeps the back
4:47
straps the beautiful and he gives the rest of that to other his family or other people and stuff like that so okay
4:52
good man anyways this is from Thomas nent probably Ted's brother or you know maybe sibling or some type or something
4:59
going on I love your podcast however oh wait a minute however I knew it I knew there was a catch they have been getting
5:05
a little long in the tooth up until last couple I think that anything over an hour is too long for my short attention
5:13
span all right thanks for some very useful information so he likes us and
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and in small doses maybe the lord giveth and the lord taketh away that's what I
5:23
learn growing up okay so what are we going to do for Thomas are we going to well you could do a couple of things we
5:29
could uh edit special versions for Thomas we we can cut can we do that Dean
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is that possible uh that would be vaa I think always okay so maybe we could do
5:40
special versions for Thomas we should probably clear it with the CEST because she will have a certain price tag on that no I was thinking see got what I
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was thinking is that maybe Thomas wouldn't mine uh because he'd be getting the extra tension of a specially edited
5:56
version of the podcast you would mind like coughing up a couple bucks for that type of thing that's what I mean yeah
6:02
yeah yeah count just got nothing to do with it oh no count under the table this is Count a pay for [ __ ] trust me this
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would never fly with her this would be something just between us and Thomas us
6:14
and Thomas or you and Thomas when it comes down to the dollars the cash dollars yeah cuz yeah you don't like doing the heavy lifting right you're all
6:21
about you're all about the I'm the nice guy I'll take the cash if you I'm just it's getting it out of your pocket
6:27
that's the tough part it's a tough job you know uh so no yes no Thomas we we
6:34
apologize sometimes we just have fun we we're we're up here we're just kind of shooting the breeze it's very unscripted
6:39
uh we got a script and good Dean Taylor do a great job with that but you know we uh if it's long it's probably because
6:45
we're just uh farting around and having some fun maybe we get paid by the minute or the word the word yeah the minute the
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word yes if he's on Spotify though you can speed us up you can turn us up to
6:57
like 1.5 or something and an hour and it' be no problem understanding all the words you guys
7:04
will be high pitched and quick but pitch but you can do that wow hey the only is
7:11
there an easy way on Apple podcast Dean or Nick or anybody to fast forward to
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scrub through is so hard I find it so hard to scrub through they have the line there and I got to kind of roll my thumb to move it a little bit like it's small
7:22
increments is that so if you I don't know if this is a good podcast material but if you put your thumb on it and then
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you move it dead like to the bottom of the screen and then move ah it moves in small increments I thank you Dean yeah
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thank you sir there you go sometimes you just you know you just don't want to listen to I don't listen to me I listen
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to you I listen to us I move over to an there's an sometimes you're like toas you just don't want you kidding me you
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want to commit that that fast forward button is my part of my life right there and everything I watch um you're not the
7:54
only one Thomas we we do agree you know there there is sort of sometimes they get carried away the programs get uh
8:01
carried away a little bit because we like P said we enjoy doing what we're doing but but more importantly sometimes a guest is really intriguing or or you
8:08
know goes on a little bit something they get carried away much like this listener feedback piece is getting carried away Thomas is getting lots of time right now
8:14
you think he's getting too much time there you go well there you go there you go see there's a problem right there so
8:19
this will probably go into overtime and why say Thomas nent made those guys talk
8:25
too long that's what's going to happen Thomas you're in trouble now oh boy uh fishing canada.com if you I hope that
8:33
helped Thomas um if not well least you got a good shout out at least you know
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what I mean uh fishing canada.com was that what we're no we're we're podcast
8:43
Network which you can access on the fishing canada.com for sure that's why I said that that's right that's what I'm
8:48
thinking place that's the easiest place to find out all our Network you know you're right I don't go to to yeah now
8:55
that I think of it when I want to find out something about what we're doing I go to fishing canada.com even if it's
9:01
about a podcast there you go there's multiple ways of doing this multip I go through the front door by the way right
9:08
I don't podcast if you went to shop. fishing.com I don't know if You' get the podcast would you that might not be the
9:14
the back door might not get you there true good point you know don't go in the back door of an out house buddy cuz you
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be in trouble if you do that I was going somewhere with this I oh uh episode 46
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of eaten wild wow they're getting up there hey look at that there they sure are uh um well it's called what makes a
9:31
chef with uh Antonio's or maybe Antonio is not with him but the chef um is Craig
9:39
Baxter who by the way I just watched a um an offline edit of him he's the Irish
9:47
guy and Scottish actually they talk with that Scottish Irish no he hates they hate that he's
9:53
green Portuguese Italian no no but those two no no wait a minute no you didn't
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he's got a green tattoo yeah he wears a green shirt why would I not think he's Irish
10:06
he's married an Irish woman maybe and he talks with one of those accents he sounds like an Irish those accents
10:13
sounds like very different accents they do have different AC I can't pick them I can't well maybe if I heard them side by
10:19
side I would but if you just hear one really well my first notion was that he's Irish but
10:26
Scottish anyways he does a great job of uh food food preparation he's a good we Scotsman uh he's answering all kinds of
10:33
questions on the eating wild podcast um he's he's done a lot of work in
10:39
Australia so he's cooking kangaroo how good is a brew Burger they're damn good
10:44
oh they're damn good there a nuisance down there you know what I mean so that's an animal that you take care of
10:49
business and you get to eat them too you don't just throw it away he talks about Scottish poachers see there you go now
10:55
we know he's Scottish yeah cuz he wouldn't talk about Irish poachers cuz no you get in trouble for that yeah they
11:01
get beat up they get beat up for that way hey now you're profiling stop the
11:07
best the best beer for cooking he talks about that which is an interesting subject i' like to hear about that one I
11:13
know you would that's why you got to go to episode 46 oh I listen to them all trust me I'll I'll be waiting for that
11:18
one and interesting when you can start calling yourself a chef which is very
11:24
very interesting wow so there you go have you ever called yourself a chef H sometimes I do yeah cuz I have certain
11:30
dishes where I would defy um a real Chef to to make any
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better I'm going to once I read this then I'm going to give you a little or listen to this I'll if you haven't listened to it yet I'll give you a
11:42
little quiz of what he says and then you'll see if you're Chef material or non- Chef see I'm Chef material okay
11:48
cheffy cheffy uh Peter McVey cheffy Peter McVey speaking of chefs I had this
11:54
wonderful experience I can't sh I can't share with you because Thomas would object to but I guarantee you're losing
12:02
out on a a world class story but I'm not going to go there do that a special
12:08
episode maybe on a Q&A I'll write in a question dear an who is Peter McVey like
12:13
that he is was I don't even know he's probably not alive anymore but oh my God
12:19
what a character Scottish English he was English hardcore like staunch staunch
12:26
wow needless to say he he he makes made makes a split cane uh bamboo Bamboo rods
12:35
he splits he splits the bamboo in little slivers wow like hundreds of slivers but
12:41
they're not just split but he has to shape them with the and I can't remember
12:47
32° or 35° angles on both sides because when you put them together they have to
12:52
form a circle right oh my God and he would do that after a jug or two of wine
13:00
that was the amazing part and he did a good job any I'm not going to get into the story cuz it's just going to make
13:05
this whole show too long and I don't want to do that for folks like Thomas Thomas yes all right indeed Thomas nent
13:11
via email by the way if you want to have your uh stories read or thought or your
13:18
statement on here feedback of any type yeah any feedback at all you just check us out at info is it
13:25
info.com where is that where Thomas sent his that's correct yep all right uh info.com and uh Dean
13:32
will pull it out and make sure that we address it Dean looks at him he he knew this was significant enough that you
13:38
know we're we're carrying on so Dean wants the audience to get their their opinion in on an and Pete you yapping
13:44
too much versus not versus you know yeah good we don't mind bad you know negative
13:49
what's in the news Mr Bowman this a good news story yeah uh in the senior us uh
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the in the senior US Open and Amur isn't it Championship was it Dean yep yeah
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yeah uh this dude caught that northern pike on a golf course body of water now
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I guess it'd be a golf Pond I guess they're all ponds right now he states that it was a 50in no fish his best gas was he to be
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huge he'd have to be like Eric Lindros right there you know what I mean he could be he could be could be 62 64 66
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yeah I mean like big fish it's a big fish that is a big fish to be caught on
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a pond a golf course anywhere yeah normally like we have Royal Ashburn up
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north of us here they had uh larg mouth bass and rainbow troat Y in their ponds
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right they probably huge too I bet the rainbows were big oh my God they fed them every night and then they throw the
14:48
pellets in and then I think every Golf Course has probably got a or two with with fish why wouldn't you why wouldn't
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you you and I think some of them don't some of them come naturally too somehow Birds yeah like that's what I mean yeah
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instead of stalking like as you know which behooves me how in a hell I mean I
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don't get what about bird poop could they eat a bass and then poop it out still alive if we remember which we
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probably won't we should ask Dr Cook later on God now down I'm not writing
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that but it just behooves me how they can say that a bird is capable of carrying fertilized
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eggs yeah you know what long-legged water
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they're walking and they step on a nest and and and eggs get stuck in their feet then they fly off the next they're
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already fertilized so now they get they somehow get through and survive I suppose wasn't that this the case when
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we were in Florida wasn't that what they said those those strip pits that we were on was insane the amount of large Mal
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bass in these places they said it was all natural that was crazy remember that we catching two at a time on a top water that was good
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fishing was that good fishing wow another notable Golf Course catch in
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2010 a sturgeon was caught at Riverbend Golf Course in Alberta so a stury must
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have been must be a river that runs through that camp well it could be a Ponder or a lake in there too right sturgeon living 4 fo8 7 77 lbs so oh H
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and peacock bass in Florida there's some uh of course peacocks a lot of peacocks there now wow that's a good Pike for I
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take that Pike anywhere never were mind on a golf course I don't know if it's 50 or not but I'll tell you what it's a big one be 50 if you were holding it may 80
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come on come on now and and the guy can golf too and I
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can't and that news by the way is all sitting at fishing canada.com if you're looking for a place to get information
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like that like where else are you going to get stories like this fishing canada.com the portal the gateway to
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your next fishing Adventure right give me a hell yeah hell yes hell yeah fan
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question of the week Jody Charlton from BC via email again infoe fishing
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canada.com see that they're all emailing now how do you know if these are fan
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questions of the week or whether they are because a question would be a question and a feedback would be
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feedback like Buddy's there Ted nent gave us the hey you're too long in the tooth there but
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this guy this jod is saying quote what is the weirdest thing you have found in
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a fish's stomach so that's a question that is an act question hell kind of a question is that well you you couldn't
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have dug a little deeper in that 45 gon drum I have no choice it's all random right I spin it up and true I like that
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yeah but when you get one like this can't you just no is anybody is anybody like the fishing Canada draws you is
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there a security guy there from Brinks watching you do this draw it's an Systema is doing BBA watch it's all
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honor System baa I I have not that I can remember I can't remember any weird
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things I've seen SOS in um in fish's bellies the actual Yamamoto because
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because that bait is so there's something about that bait to fish
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especially large M bass they love it so much that they will literally swallow it and eat it if you let them you know what I mean so you got to be quick on the dry
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with that um I can't think of I mean other than other animals i' all kinds of
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other creatures duck you had a duck a duck spit out and AET from a small M bass he's little baby duckling that was
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great I caught one time this one freaked me out but it's it's natural but it freak me out as to why I caught two
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northern pike that were side by side basically in the size of this room
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within less than an hour of each other brought them home cuz going to eat them one was full of
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Shad B beautiful Shad shiny Shad like probably gizzard Shad whatever we have
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around here the and nothing else and the other one this exact same size Pike had
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all baby bluegill in his belly from the same body of water same time same time of year obviously same area same area
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right there just like side they were like the a schooling wow but they had totally different stuff in their bellies
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I don't know why that would be and I mean totally and about the same amount so they had about five or six of these
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small fish in their bellies but just a totally different one was on the Shad bite and one I guess didn't care about it and one was on the bluegill bite and
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didn't care about the Shad I mean it's like humans right one wants to go to McDonald's the other on I don't know
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Burger King yeah you know good buddies good buddies hang out hang out together and uh you know yeah that's what it is
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but I wonder if that one just predates the one is a Shad killer you know he just loves doing the open more Open
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Water whereas the bluegill guy was sort of in the weeds or whatever like that because there's weeds right in the area but there's Open Water right in the area
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too so that was kind of cool there you go Jody that's uh I I I haven't got
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anything better that's good actually that's good compared to what we uh we were hoping for right so there you
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[Music]
20:09
go the humble goldfish everyone's favorite aquatic pet it's small easy to
20:14
care for what's there not to love even the cat may be mesmerized by the color and movements of your aquarium friends
20:21
goldfish are great at home but don't let them loose releasing goldfish or other domestic aquatic pets or plants into
20:27
natural environment is harmful to both your pet and the planet Gish just dropped ecosystems by out competing
20:34
native species for food and resources in degraded habitats they contribute to algy blooms they kill aquatic wildlife
20:40
and pass viruses and diseases contracted in aquariums to Wildfish they could even live up to 40 years and grow as big as a
20:48
football Anglers this is where you come in if you find a gold fish at your local
20:53
fishing spot report it to the invading species hotline or go online to eat Ed
21:00
maps.com remember to never dump your live bait into the water and risk spreading other Aquatic Invaders keep
21:06
our legs free from Invaders and don't let them [Music]
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loose what brings people together more than fishing and hunting how about food I'm Chef Antonio Mala and I have spent
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years catering to the stars now on Outdoor Journal radio's eaten wild podcast luig hookset and I are bringing
21:29
our expertise and redex to our real passion the outdoors each week we're bringing you inside the boat tree stand
21:36
or Duck Blind and giving you real advice that you can use to make the most out of your fishing game you're going to flip
21:41
that duck breast over once you get a nice hard sear on that breast you don't want to see her the actual meat and it's
21:48
not just us chatting here if you can name a celebrity we've probably worked with them and I think you might be
21:53
surprised who likes to hunt and fish when kit Harrington asks me to prepare him sushimi with his Fass I couldn't say
21:59
no whatever Taylor shared and wanted I made sure I had it Burgers steak anything off the barbecue that's a true
22:05
Cowboy all Jeremy rener wanted to have was lemon ginger shots all day find eating wild now on Spotify Apple podcast
22:12
or wherever else you get your podcast all righty let's jump into a little fish talk with the doc Our Guest as I
22:18
mentioned top of the show he's not a guest anymore he's a regular he's a regular host co-host uh Dr Steven cook
22:25
fresh back from a long trip around the other side of the globe how are you Steve I'm well thanks how are you good
22:33
just back from China yeah yeah China's fascinating uh similar issues with
22:40
respect to Aquatic resources that we Face here lots of big rivers and lots of big dams uh but what's really remarkable
22:47
is they have entire universities that are the the entire topic of the university is fish and Water Resources
22:55
so you know how normally like there might be a department at best at a
23:01
Canadian or us School we're talking about an entire University with 20,000 plus students studying nothing but
23:08
aquatic resources which is just mindblowing W you wouldn't think of like I wouldn't associate China with really
23:15
being involved in conservation and Fisheries and all that stuff but wow I tell you you see a lot of videos though
23:21
they're very fish or if there's a fishing video of any type be netting or catching to eat whatever place is loaded
23:27
with fish species I don't know what species they are but they just load the boat up it's unreal like the the amount
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of fish they have do they have do they have invasive species there North
23:38
America they have North American they have Northern bike over
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there we trade we'll take the we we get the carp and we send them Sunfish yeah there you go there you go okay they and
23:51
you're you're in Quebec right now too correct yep Quebec City overlooking the plains of Abraham I can see the St
23:56
Lawrence River out my hotel room at a conference the international fish passage conference where we're talking
24:02
about getting fish safely past dams both upstream and and downstream cool you're
24:08
always on the move like holy me never home but we were back yeah well he gets the summer at home he just goes all
24:14
through the spring and fall and winter right so yeah there you go cool all righty what do we got on on tab for
24:22
today well how about how about our favorite topic and we seem to be talking about this all the time
24:29
but uh it really isn't that often but it seems to me that we pre-spawn and nesting bass in this case
24:36
behavior um what are you guys working on I believe you're you're either you're either finished or you're just starting
24:43
a study on that talk to us about that yeah we've been working on on bass for a couple decades and the this is the Royal
24:50
Wii it's a big team uh and it includes my PhD advisor uh Dr David Phillip from
24:56
the University of Illinois uh and he's retired now but we continue to collaborate on on this work and indeed I
25:02
saw my first bass on a nest last Friday and uh I get home from Quebec tomorrow and first thing Thursday morning I'll
25:08
have a wet suit on and we'll be getting up close and personal with these animals so we do have bass already on Nest here
25:15
in eastern Ontario a little bit earlier than usual uh we we spoke a month or so
25:20
ago uh and uh definitely had some concern about things being shifted really early but uh in the end I say
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about a week earlier than usual to spawn here right I was out on the weekend Stephen and and Ang and I was into a
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couple large mold back bays and there was remnants of some nests either from last year I couldn't tell if they were
25:41
last year's nests or maybe they started to make them this year but there was Zero fish on nests like none they were all swimming around cruising and looking
25:48
for their Partners or whatever they're doing eating I'm not sure but but they weren't they were not sunish right like
25:53
Sunfish like to Sun themselves and bass are Sunfish and they do just that at this time of year bass like in in the
25:59
system that you were in uh they're up in that shallow water it's dark bottom so it warms up nice and nice and quickly
26:06
and they're just sitting there taking in the sun they love it and what's going to trigger them what is going to be that
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defining moment in each one of their lives this is I gotta go and I got to get my thing done yeah uh a temperature
26:21
that increases to about 14 or 15 degrees and stays at that level or above so for
26:28
examp example if it were to go to 15 degrees in the Back Bay today and then down to 12 tomorrow uh they would even
26:35
if they spawned when it's 15 they would abandon their nest it would be too cold
26:40
the cold would kill their their uh their eggs and developing Offspring so it needs to be at least 14 and stable
26:48
ideally going up from there so and it it really is about temperature and it was
26:54
that bay that I found that my first and only nest bass I've seen this year last
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uh last Friday uh that was about 145 degrees C and those uh
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um it it we'd been in there the day before and it wasn't 14 uh and uh you
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know it's it's just like that it's it's a magic temperature that's and I'll tell you what at this time of year for
27:20
anybody that's listening one thing I have noticed in every area that I fish this Zone 20 that I fish so be at Lake
27:26
Ontario be at the Bay of quinty somewhere you know these joining Body Waters they're very different too the Lake Ontario is very different than the
27:31
bay aqu quiny but every morning those water temps are way lower like in
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Fahrenheit at least 5 degrees 3 to 5 degrees lower than they are in the afternoon so every they're fluctuated these nights are getting so cold I guess
27:44
that the water temperature is dropping back down and it's really affecting these fish they are not moving into the spawn yet the the other day that water
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was up to 62 Fahrenheits I'm not sure what that is what your number is I can't even remember in Celsius anymore but but
27:57
uh it went up to 62 and it stayed there but then I know it was going to drop they said it's going to be a 10° night again it's going to drop down again so
28:03
these fish are exactly what Steven are saying they're just getting out they're coming back in they're moving around they're just not ready yet is that that
28:09
temperature is not there yet so yeah yeah yeah it doesn't make sense to invest all you know they've waited an
28:14
awful long time they waited since last year at Beth some of them have not spawned for a few years uh and last
28:20
thing you want to do is uh you know get ditch your eggs and fertilize them and start to guard them only to have them
28:27
wiped out that night from cold temperatures so uh they do wait till it's good and stable it's there's still
28:33
some nests that will be lost if there's a a big storm event you know a week or so into this into the spawn that blows
28:40
cold water up onto the the nesting uh areas that will will wipe out uh the the
28:47
bass spawn as well some of those fish will renest others won't I mean it's
28:52
still a concern obviously with the changing weather that we're having it's still much a concern because as we've
29:00
talked a million times uh at least here in Canada and I I say that because I
29:06
want to talk about the US and how how they their fish differ down there it's still here it's it's a bit problematic
29:14
if the weather doesn't cooperate and the season doesn't cooperate the opening
29:19
season doesn't cooperate it could be a real cluster and and uh do a lot of damage and you know it's funny it's not
29:25
damage that we're going to see today is it Steve it's damage we're going to see four or five years down the road so you
29:30
got it exactly uh I'm assuming that's what you guys are going to be doing on this study is is just seeing how much
29:37
what what the effects are on fish that are um bedding early and and or late
29:42
depending on the on the season yeah so so here's the deal in parts of Ontario
29:48
we have regulations that restrict uh people from actively targeting uh um
29:55
large Mo bass and small moth bass during the reproduction period so for example I live in eastern Ontario and in the
30:01
Inland Lakes think about the Rau system and so on uh those water bodies you know
30:07
to to actively Target nesting bass is illegal period the problem is it's
30:12
almost unenforcable uh because uh you know the only way to really get a charge is if
30:19
the conservation officer comes along and says hey what are you fishing for and you say I'm fishing for
30:25
bass they look on your cell phone and you or see you posting pictures of bath
30:30
that you've caught out of season and aren't getting them back into the water as quickly as possible so um the problem
30:36
is that you can once different seasons are open you can go out today and fish for Crappie or bluegill or yellow perch
30:44
totally legal in the same habitats where you would find nesting bass in many cases um you can come up in a couple
30:51
weeks and fish for northern pike uh and fish in the same areas using similar
30:56
baits to what you would catch bass on so uh you know a conservation officer can't
31:02
come along and say oh you're throwing a you know a 6inch Texas rigged worm you
31:07
know that that is you know only for bass well guess what I've caught Pike on those too and uh it's not my first go-to
31:14
lure that's for sure for pike uh but that's never going to hold up in a court of law you know oh you know that the
31:20
anger was using a bait that was so specific to Bass relative to the other things that could be out there so like I
31:27
said we've got an un a functionally unenforceable regulation so fast forward
31:33
and covid hits okay we've been monitoring bass populations for the last 20 so year 20 so years um throughout the
31:42
reedo and in Charleston Lake as well up in the Mississippi system and we were
31:48
starting to see through time an increase in the number of hook wounds so when we
31:53
go snorkeling we come up to a bass that's on its nest and we see on its
31:58
face whether or not it has bruising and those and we intentionally uh at times
32:05
angled nesting bass and we can go back the next day and be like yep there's a bruise in that area where that hook was
32:11
located and so we count hook wounds and then we also look and see how many of those bass were successful come the end
32:18
of Parental care how many stuck around guarded their babies till the babies were independent and uh had a a Fighting
32:25
Chance at at making it through the rest of the the season and so preco we were
32:31
seeing those hook wounding rates creep up somewhere around 70 80% in a lot of
32:37
the Lakes where we were monitoring and we were seeing reproductive success rates of around 15 to 20% so even though
32:45
you know let's just use Simple numbers so if there's a 100 bass nests in the lake only 15 to 20 of those are actually
32:52
producing baby bass so that you know that had us worried we were already
32:58
starting to think wow this is this is problematic uh and then Co happened and
33:04
there was a natural experiment and that natural experiment was uh especially during that first year 20 uh the early
33:11
part of 2020 um boat ramps were closed our American friends were not crossing
33:17
the border and we do have a lot of folks that come up a lot of tourists that come up to fish early season panfish and Pike
33:24
they weren't there and what did we see 5% wounding rates and uh Nest success
33:31
rates that were three to four times higher so we're talking 6070 even 80%
33:37
success rates and then we went back the following year and we counted the one
33:43
pluses to see how many of those fish that from that first year had made it
33:48
and we counted the highest numbers we'd ever seen so it wasn't just that more bass were were were making it through
33:55
that parental care period we were getting more baby bass the next year which is Recruitment and that means more
34:02
bass for all of us to catch in the coming years so that's what led us to
34:07
this experiment I'll describe the experiment that we're doing now uh after you guys reflect on that wow just makes
34:15
sense that's awesome from my standpoint I how I reflect on that is that we need
34:22
to get a little more serious about our rules and regulations
34:28
uh because yeah you're right there is no way to tell whether I'm in there invading you know nesting bass or
34:34
fishing for cppy or fishing for Bluegill or fishing for anything and I can I can put I can make an argument on any of
34:41
those species whether I'm fishing for them or not so that definitely is not working and we need to move on thinking
34:49
that it is an effective way of policing this so the only effective way because see the other problem too is that this
34:56
changes year to here that that's that period where we should the the fish
35:01
should be totally Untouchable can move can fluctuate from year to year
35:07
depending on weather so we've got to come up with a new way of because it doesn't make sense to me and I think
35:13
most real Ardent Bass Anglers will agree that they're willing to shorten their
35:19
season if the fishery is going to be strong and and burgeoning and flourishing for years to come I don't
35:26
think there's a bass angler that would argue with that M so we got to come up with something that works you know you said you went out fishing this weekend
35:32
for bass yeah you I have total confidence in um in in
35:40
not if you see a nesting bass even now which I'm sure there are some as Stephen
35:46
alluded to I'm sure you would pull away and back off exactly but that's a GoPro
35:52
and get a picture like Stephen does maybe but it's you but it's the other 99% absolutely that I don't trust
35:59
absolutely so how do you stop that well you got to put regulations in place to say you will not fish until we are
36:06
completely satisfied that spawn is done is that maybe the I don't know middle of
36:13
July is ridiculous as as as this might it's end July now Zone 20 right for
36:18
small mouth so you know we've just got to do a better job we can't be afraid of
36:24
the backlash from Anglers screaming and yelling I know there's a bunch of people right now listening to this saying hey
36:29
you're an anti- fisherman and you hate us no no not at all I just want to make
36:35
sure we have fish and it goes for post spawn as well or not post spawn opening day on a late season those fish could
36:42
still very well be oned even with those new season St tell us about those those big males could still be you know a five
36:48
six pounder on a bed and you have to have the willpower to say you know what I going to leave that guy alone I'm going to go catch some fish over here
36:53
somewhere whatever cuz it's just it's we have to be our own our own conservation officers I wish we could be it to others
37:00
and say hey and educate somebody but it's a tough thing to do out there right yeah yeah yep so here's what we think a
37:07
potential solution is and that is uh putting in sanctuaries that protect
37:14
nesting bass but I'm not talking about hey let's shut down the whole Shoreline on the lake in fact we think that we can
37:22
with too Maps uh and uh uh uh charts figure out where the best bass spawn H
37:29
spawning habitat is it's not hard to do we snorkel enough these Lakes to know where good bass habitat is and then take
37:35
a portion of that water and actually say no fishing at all you can't go in there and fish for pike you can't go in there
37:42
fish for Bluegill but the rest of the lake is wide open you could even have a
37:47
season where a catch you could have a catch and release bass season because it's functionally what we have already it's not legal but for for the rest of
37:55
the lake now what we've done is has lobbied the provincial government to put in a 2-year experimental regulation to
38:03
test whether or not these vast sanctuaries work and so we've done that on Lake of pentacon and Charleston Lake
38:11
uh it was in the news last year people had the opportunity to comment um it's just for two years and it's a very small
38:18
part of the lake each each um on each Lake it's less than 10% of the surface area and we've chosen some areas that
38:25
are pretty sweet for bass re production and then we've got other areas outside that are equally good that will be
38:32
monitoring so we're going to compare the reproductive success inside the sanctuary and outside uh and see how
38:39
this works to be clear that idea of that tradeoff where you can legally fish bass outside the sanctuary that is not in
38:47
effect yet but that's the kind of creative thing we could talk about in the future this is just a a two-year
38:53
experiment to see how things work and so we've got a team of about 10 students as
38:58
well as Dave and I and some other helpers uh that are Dawning wet suits on
39:04
a daily basis uh monitoring uh nests within and without we're also putting
39:09
Telemetry tags in fish to track their movements to see how long the fish uh are protected while in that Sanctuary
39:16
area and so the season it closed uh April 15th and it'll open on the first
39:22
Saturday in July and so like I said you can't go in there and you know and and
39:27
dip a worm for Bluegill uh you can't troll through for lake trout it is
39:32
fullon fish Sanctuary but only for that two and a half month period how do you
39:38
mark that area how how does the public know this is a sanctuary so it is in the regulations book and it's the obligation
39:45
of every anger in Ontario to make sure that they're adhering to the the rules on top of that we have put up 75 signs
39:53
uh that delineate the boundaries some of those signs have maps on them so that people can see specifically where they
39:59
are uh We've developed some storyboard materials uh so people go to a I can
40:05
provide the website to your team to share uh that people can uh can learn more about the details and we've put
40:11
Maps up also at the Key boat ramps on both the pentacon and and Charleston and working with the local Lake
40:17
Associations uh Bass Tournament organizing organizers and so on so I think we've done a pretty good job of
40:23
getting the word out not surprisingly the conservation officers uh that Patrol
40:29
Those laks are putting a little bit of extra effort into them this season as well y perfect actually had uh we
40:36
actually had a program like that in BC when I was out there and they use you know like the thing they use on like on
40:42
beaches to divide like the swimming area that's what they they put around there and people would just be on the outside
40:48
like dropping jigs like right on the edge of it of course they yeah
40:59
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41:40
the show St one of the problems I think that
41:46
we have and maybe this is a good time just to to Really Define this a lot of
41:52
folks say yeah but you know what we're so anal about this because in the in the US and and I go to Florida every winter
41:59
and that's all we do is fish for for Bing bass down there it's it's an actual thing they promote it they tournaments
42:06
big National tournaments in the US they they fish on beding Fish you know so why
42:12
is it that I have to adhere to these crazy rules that step and his team want to put up they fishing in the US I hate
42:19
Steven Cook I hate St why is that put your name on the list
42:24
yeah yeah yeah okay so two big things so number one the warmer things are the
42:30
more productive systems are and so when you go to a place like Florida those fish are actually able to squeeze out a
42:38
couple spawns a year if they want it is more productive um there's more time to
42:44
grow more time to get chubby getting chubby allows you to put resources
42:49
towards egg development or if you're male to put in the The energy needed to guard your baby so it's just a function
42:56
of more time to grow and not a winter to penalize you a winter in Florida you
43:02
still have the feed bags on just not as much as uh in the the summer whereas up
43:08
here in the winter we do have we'll talk about this another time we just had I had a student that just defended his PhD
43:14
the other day and we now know that bass definitely do eat in the winter but it's
43:20
still a relatively little you know under the ice they're just doing the the basics just basic maintenance um so
43:27
that's a big part of it the other piece of the equation is stalking so uh
43:33
there's not a single provincial Fish Hatchery uh in uh Ontario that produces
43:40
large Mo bass or small Mo bass uh whereas if we go into the the middle to
43:45
the southern us there's a massive Hatchery system to support uh those
43:51
fisheries and whenever we have a hatchery system uh so again here we have natural reproduction that that provides
43:59
us with our Bountiful bath populations uh albeit with more fishing pressure and
44:04
more nesting bass uh we're not allowing them to do what they need to do um but in the US it tells us that something's
44:10
off that there's too much fishing pressure if you need to stock um stalking is an absolute legitimate
44:16
fisheries management activity and decision but we do it when the other
44:22
tools aren't working it's a last resort here we're able to manage bass pop ations theoretically uh by limiting uh
44:31
limiting fishing during the reproductive period we have limits on the number of uh fish that can be harvested uh we have
44:38
the season closed in the winter when they're aggregated and and all kind of hanging out in the the same spots um and
44:46
if things go poorly here we don't have a hatchery truck to back up uh to the lake and and dump more in so I think that
44:52
also behooves us to do a better job in protecting the natural repr producing um
44:58
Fisheries that we have and it's cheaper Mother Nature is doing it for us we're not having to pay to produce fish these
45:07
no but Stephen though if you look at it at another angle could it not be for an economic value for them just let get as
45:14
good a bass population as possible down in these lower States and we're going to get more Anglers out there and more Anglers out there because they be doing
45:19
it for that reason but they're stalking them right that's what I mean if they just keep stocking even even if they're depleted naturally they just say let's
45:25
keep this going keep more gas in the tank you know what I mean exactly it is it is an economic argument it's the
45:31
economic engine you need fish to draw draw folks in and if if the management
45:36
interventions aren't sufficiently aggressive or if the effort is simply too high and we're you know we're so
45:44
lucky in Ontario uh we egg you know there's so many choices we can't figure
45:49
out where we want to go to fish whereas in a lot of these uh and and you know I know we have Toronto and Ottawa and
45:55
Montreal you know there's some big cities around uh but we don't have the same pressure that some of those systems
46:01
in the southern us face uh we have more water uh and fewer people and we benefit
46:07
from that um but we also need to protect that I just read uh and it wasn't about
46:15
bass but I just read a piece uh out of Quebec actually um I think it was yeah
46:21
speckle trout or or brook trout fishing where where they have uh still in that
46:28
Province uh Lakes where catch and release fishing is not even allowed and
46:33
I only mentioned that because my next question to you was was how effective is our Catch and Release working on bass in
46:39
this part of the world because in Quebec apparently there's there's some question whether whether it's working or not and
46:46
in fact there's Lakes where you are not allowed to catch and release you've got a limit a fish you know what that limit
46:51
is catch them and get out of here wow yeah interesting yeah
46:57
uh During the non-reproductive period bass are quite resilient to catch and release so um things go badly for bass
47:05
in two two scenarios one is deep hooking and so that tends to happen you can even
47:11
you know it can happen to the you know it can happen to either of you as as Fisheries profession fishing professionals on occasion rare occasion
47:19
um but it happens very commonly with novice Anglers that don't realize that their dorm is you know half halfway
47:26
being d gested before they they notic that they've a fish on um the other is
47:32
of course barot trauma so fish that are caught from depth and we've talked about barot trauma before uh um and and of
47:39
course if there was ever anything that happened a catastrophic Live Well failure uh you know you're not paying
47:46
attention you're live well you're fishing a tournament and you know all of a sudden you know there's no Oxygen left
47:51
in your in your uh your live well those are sort of the three scenarios in which bass tend to
47:58
in which to to kill bass in general if you go fishing uh even during relatively
48:03
warm temperatures large on Fast and small on fast are pretty resilient to catch and release grab a quick picture
48:08
get them back in the water uh they do quite well is there so let's say the water is 70°
48:16
Fahrenheit is one species overall tougher on catch release than the other is is a large mold more resilient is a
48:23
small mold more or they dead even uh large m bass are much more resilient in
48:28
two ways one uh they can do better they have higher thermal tolerance and two
48:34
they can tolerate lower levels of dissolved oxygen and so uh that was some
48:39
work actually um I did in collaboration with Dr Bruce T who's somebody that you've had on before uh back about 20
48:46
years ago we looked at the comparative physiology of smallmouth bass and large mouth bass to figure out why smallmouth
48:53
bass tended to Faire relatively poorly in a comparative sense in live wells uh
48:59
compared to large mouth and we usually would see that when people would fish for both in the same day so for example
49:06
somebody's out in Simco uh they fish small mouth in the morning in cool deep
49:11
water throw them in the live well and then head down and fish the Holland River and you know the water
49:17
temperatures you know 101 15 degrees Fahrenheit warmer uh and uh a little bit
49:23
more turbid and uh guess what those Smallmouth aren't doing so well if you did the opposite it wouldn't be a big
49:30
deal large mouth would do just fine in that slightly cooler clear clear water
49:35
but uh that those higher temperatures can kick a kick a small mouth in the butt no kidding that's funny because
49:42
when you if you thought about just like an average angler that's caught a few of each species they think oh my God that
49:48
small M's got to be way tougher than that large mode that large mod can flopping in that small MO is up and down
49:53
smallies are tough but not when it comes to water exactly they oh my God they're Fighters that's
50:00
cool and they're so much more aggressive so uh we're dealing with the large M on
50:05
nests so we're dealing with the large mouth first and they are much tougher so
50:11
uh in in terms of if we need to catch them for experimental purposes or even
50:16
to find their nest you swim up and like that kind of looks like a nest but the male isn't here uh and the reality is
50:22
we've scared him away for a couple seconds we see him kind of lurking off in the corner whereas a small moou bass
50:27
will be in our face they will they will bite us they will every year somebody gets their mask knocked off uh and if we
50:36
do need to experimentally Angle Fish uh Smallmouth It's usually the first cast
50:42
they are very aggressive they're very good Dads um so that that's an
50:47
interesting observation too just the you know the the toughness of of small mouth
50:53
we see it on the nest they're the they're really really good Dads think that trans sorry I think that transcends
50:58
throughout the year because so many times an and I have been in the shallows and you're working on a large we you're
51:04
just just sitting there like a like an ass just won't won't bite you're shaking do he comes over looks at it backs up
51:11
takes out you do that to a small mouth even in the summertime in the shallow water so I think that's like that all year almost you know what I mean Stephen
51:17
we we know you got to go um we don't want to take a whole lot more time but I just want you to give folks that are
51:23
listening to this or or watching this that might not be as familiar with the life cycle of a bass um give them just a
51:32
quick overview of what happens once those eggs are laid and the uh father is
51:37
guarding the eggs what what happens from there forward okay so so just remind everybody it's all about the male so the
51:44
male creates the nest the female comes around chooses which male's going to get get her eggs um she and the male spawn
51:52
for about 2 or three hours he'll sort of shoe her away when he's happy with the
51:57
amount of eggs that he's got that he's fertilized and then he sticks around he does the hard work the female disappears
52:04
she goes to start eating uh thinking about spawning next year uh and the male
52:09
sticks around 24 hours a day seven days a week he is on high alert he is uh for
52:15
the first week or so he is constantly spinning on the nest and he's doing that to oxygenate the eggs to keep them free
52:22
of silt it also allows him to look in all directions he's paranoid that a a
52:27
bluegill uh or a little perch is going to going to rush in there and and uh steal his babies um if it's a predator
52:35
Rich Lake uh where there's gobies or lots of sunfish uh he'll be chasing them
52:40
away he'll be opening his mouth and making aggressive displays um we call it
52:47
yawning but it's it's it's not because he's tired uh it's because he's trying to look ominous uh and uh over time as
52:55
those babies velop as the eggs hatch uh and they start pinging up off the nest
53:00
they start to wander a little bit further from the nest uh the dad will go with them and the dad will continue to
53:08
now provide care as this mobile ball of fry moves around in Shallow Bays along
53:15
shorelines uh and he'll do that for anywhere between three and six weeks um three weeks if water temperatures are
53:21
warm uh six weeks if water temperatures are cool and if at any point the male
53:28
disappears the male is removed or he gets tired he runs out of fuel basically
53:34
the the he runs out of energy um he will he will bail and those Offspring will be
53:40
consumed unless they've developed anti-predator behaviors but that's really when the male leaves in a in best
53:46
case scenario the male says wow you guys know what you're doing you guys are able to fend for yourselves now I'm gone good
53:52
luck uh and that's that's the three to six week Mark um but if he leaves early
53:58
they are fish food they will be slurped up by uh uh by other fish in a matter of
54:04
minutes can you say with total certainty that when that fish is caught in either
54:09
inadvertently or purposely caught during this period that you just talked about do you know for a fact if that fish will
54:17
go back to doing what he was doing before he was caught or is it it is it over for him if they're released close
54:24
by in other words uh you know if they went in Al Live Well which would be in our part of the world's World illegal
54:31
but if they were released right away they will go back they will assess their nest they will look at it and say wow uh
54:38
this Nest is full of bluegill half my babies are gone this ain't worth it and they will bail um obviously if you get
54:45
the fish back quickly um and and we do this for example when when I say we
54:52
experimentally Angle Fish off nests we put in a surg at dad so one of the
54:57
students is in there in a full wet suit 7 mm wet suit with a pointed rod and
55:03
they are defending the nest and it is hard work uh there might be 20 30 Sunfish trying to get in there and we're
55:10
aggressively protecting the nest until that male comes back and gets control so
55:16
as long as the nest hasn't been devalued in other words lots of his babies or or eggs eaten then he will get back to it
55:24
but he will be tired right there's a he just exercised you caught him you know you know there might have been a little
55:30
bit of air exposure uh that makes him a bit tired so it takes about 12 hours
55:35
before he starts to guard with the same Vigor before you angled him so even
55:40
though he's might be back on the nest and even if none of his babies got eaten he's going to be a little bit slower for
55:47
that first uh first 12 hours or so so he's not out of the woods until uh until
55:52
that point so so it depends is kind of the answer yeah all the more reason why
55:57
we need to do something about that I really believe we need to look at that and say okay let's not fool around here
56:04
folks because critical it's critical absolutely anyways you got to get going cuz they're waiting for you on stage
56:11
there keynot speak somewhere else now he's probably talking about cars somewhere or something Stephen thank you
56:16
very much for joining us we really appreciate you taking the time man and uh keep up the good work Buddy yes sir thanks appreciate it Ste take care Oh Dr
56:24
Cook Stephen cook he's good you want a little fish talk there's a little fish talk that's a lot of fish talk right there you know you know when guys that
56:31
that have been in the industry long as you and I have and are totally on the edge of our seats listening and and
56:36
taking it all in it's good stuff yeah right so it's it's you know it's it's a problem that we've been talking about it
56:42
seems like forever I I ever since we started catching bass we've been talking about what happens if
56:50
you know and it's still one of the things that one of the things that freaked me out and he's absolutely right is that I've I've seen guys you saw so
56:57
much on the cottage Lake on Crystal Lake the guys in the no there was no predators in there they were fishing
57:03
bass but you see these guys that are throwing spinner baits in a bass SL Pike area and yeah you know you know they're
57:10
try doing pre pre-spawn but he said when you're throwing a plastic worm you know
57:15
how many Pike have you caught you probably got on your one hand you could tell on a plastic worm hardly yeah yeah so you know that guy's bass fishing yet
57:21
they can't prove it in a court of law that's crazy you know scary that one you know I mean so yeah almost yeah I know I
57:29
know it's it's a weird thing because every time I I pull the soap box out and stand on it and scream out that we need
57:36
to do better at guarding and managing pre-spawn fish everybody thinks I'm anti- fishing and it's not the case I'm
57:43
just I'm just stating the facts that if we keep mucking around with these fish when they're in their reproductive cycle
57:50
so somebody said and I don't remember it was a good friend of ours said well what's the difference between uh uh
57:56
mucking around with them when they're just at that pre-spawn stage as maybe in the fall when they're starting their egg
58:05
production right at some point right and he made a good point he say you're damaging them then you might as well
58:11
damage them when they're ready to drop them you know do you honestly think you're
58:16
damaging a bass in the fall with the eggs the female eggs the point was exactly that is that that's when they're
58:22
starting to develop fish in their bodies a lot longer than people think they don't just
58:30
it's it's almost like a human right I don't know how many months they have it c a big female and late in the year you
58:35
might potentially be damaging she's probably got eggs in her how bet you in October November so where do you draw
58:41
the line I mean that's the case we're fishing we're fishing idiots we love to fish and consequently we will always
58:49
push that line I like the sanctuary thought too I like that I think that's a great idea it's it's worked in past for
58:56
Walley Etc on these River mes you know two weeks later later although to Dean's point he's right you know because we've
59:03
seen it push the Ed everybody's going to fish right on that rooll and now they know where the bass are right because
59:09
they're like well they're in there so exactly you're pointing it out to say here that's what I thought when when
59:15
when Stephen was talking about that I say I going to get my eyes on those charts too cuz I know everyone soon as that season opens I'm in there anyways
59:22
it's a fascinating subject and one that we need to continue on because it it needs to be we need to
59:30
keep working until we think we have it right maybe we'll never have it right we probably won't but you know what I think
59:35
if we keep stepping towards that you know what we might save a few fish so that are it on that note we will bid you
59:41
an Ado on the uh Outdoor Journal Radio podcast uh from all of the crew here baa
59:48
behind there he was actually very involved into he only noded off I was he only
59:55
kned off three times oh wow large mother or small Mo buba what's your
1:00:00
preference oh second little small moth he's a SMY guy he is actually in the the
1:00:06
house and he sat with us for the whole time no no he went out did he go for a little poo poo or something why do you
1:00:13
have to be so vulgar I could have said
1:00:18
[ __ ] and of course our illustrious producer Dean Taylor um Mr Bowman Angela
1:00:24
viola talk to you later folks [Music] [Applause]
1:00:30
[Music]
#Biological Sciences
#Fishing
#Wildlife