A Scientist's Take on LiveScope | Outdoor Journal Radio ep.146

Name: A Scientist's Take on LiveScope | Outdoor Journal Radio ep.146 | Open Video
Uploaded: 2024-12-02T18:53:51+00:00
Duration: 1 h 30 min 8 s

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[Music] you know like for example if I wanted people to stick to the program and and
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be glued to their seats for the whole show I would probably say something like those are the discussions I think that
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are happening and they're much more palatable than should we ban this technology uh that is problematic in a a
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number of ways um there are instances in which uh uh natural resource management
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agencies do ban certain technology you can't go hunting with grenades uh or or
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Mount guns on on drones and fly them around to to shoot Wild Turkey um you
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know there are Waters where we can't have a Barb on a hook or we can't use live ba so there are some regulations
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that exist that are sort of gear focused but at this point yeah there's
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not really yeah a lot of the natural resource management agencies are sort of sitting back and saying huh you know I
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I'm not really sure what we should do about this yet we don't do that right we
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don't fish unless there's fish there call that good bad or ugly I don't know but it's changed the way we we spend our
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time on the water we SP we probably spend more time on the water than we ever did before but less time angling as
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you're fishing away they're looking and looking all they're doing is scanning and looking all day long they don't have they're not fishing their concentration
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is not at casting it's so they're just they sucking in they're sponging in all that information and then all of a
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sudden day after day after day and all of a sudden they're going hey cast right over there perfect Let It Drop be ready
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[Applause] boom this episode of Outdoor Journal radio is brought to you in part by the
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invasive species Center protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species Freedom Cruise Canada rent the
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boat own the memories jmb Cyca Marine your home for all things Power Sports
2:04
boats and equipment and sail the ultimate destination for your Outdoor
2:11
Adventures well hello everybody Welcome to the program Outdoor Journal podcast
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outdoor General Radio podcast actually would be the correct uh way to say I I'm I've noticed
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I'm shortening things up lately you find that the older you get or no I get lazy I don't want to do getting
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lazy a lot I will say that I'm like so probably I'm probably doing it vocally verbally uh physically mentally I'm
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probably didn't at all cuz I'm a lazy son of a by K uh he is Peter Bowman who just made that statement yes
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that's correct lazy P that's right uh Bobo over there and Dean over there
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who's actually right over there right now there you are Dean Taylor our producer of this wonderful program I'm
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Angelo bio thanks for joining us once again a wonderful program but when are they not wonderful can we look back can
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we look back and see when we've had not we have to look at the ratings right and any the the audience was so nice as to
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give us ratings and the numbers and the and the listens and all that and then we'd have to say yeah that wasn't such a a great program maybe well you know what
3:18
we maybe it needs to be a little more click batish kind of stuff you know like for example if I wanted people to stick
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to the program and and be glued to their seats for the whole show I would probably say something like and later on
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kids we have a little fish do with a doc Dr Steven Cook will be joining us give me a hell that's right uh biology
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professor at Carlton University uh over 700 peer-reviewed papers I can't even
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imagine I'm trying to physically can't count to 700 can you are you kidding me I can't even imagine how big of a closet
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this guy's got with all these paper reviewed uh peer reviewed papers that's right that's right a closet Pap he was
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last with us on episode 131 and was should we be fishing in hot weather you
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all remember that great episode uh this time we have them on because uh they
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just unveil actually Dean has it been published yet or by the time they hear this it'll be published at the time of
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recording this it's it's unpublished okay so this is a paper another paper that uh Dr Cook is
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authoring um which is based on a number of studies throughout North America from
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other scientists all regarding forward facing sonar the F topic of the the E
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topic of the fishing world everybody wants to talk about it so there I got you now you're going to have to stick and listen to the whole show a
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scientific perspective of it I like this this is going to be good the pros cons
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the dos and don'ts you don't want to miss it that's what you don't want to do that's right so he will be coming up
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very shortly first want to remind folks uh fishing Canada the store the fishing Canada store has got all of the new swag
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the new goodies is that what they were asking you about right there that's what I was hoping he would wear today oh do I
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have one of those no you don't how the hell am I going to wear if you guys don't give me one could get a deal or something in the back there deal give me
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one I'll wear it give me I'll do it put a hat on me I don't care you have almost every one of them I'm surprised you
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don't have that one that was you know what I don't have and they're not on here are the new uh fish in Canada
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species you don't have one of those yet no I have the older ones but the new on
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that are um I don't even have the older ones any of the older ones none does the matter with this show I mean good God
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think guy putting in 30 years the company would get a species specific hoodie you would think so wouldn't you I
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would think so I would think so look at look what you got to look forward to Dean hey but in 60 years you're going to
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get a hoodie because you don't get it at 30 I like that one I'll take that one
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I'm sure you will how much is that going to cost me well go find out uh shop.
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fish.com all you have to do is go there can I get a discount code well probably
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the same discount you got on that shirt that you're wearing I would think free shipping because I had to
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walk over there and pick it up myself by the way I do understand that there's a deal going on right now where if you buy certain items you get other items for
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half price or 20 off or 25 off off depends on the other item obviously it's
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it's that time of year right when you need go uh to be in the know let's put it that way if you don't go you won't
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know ho ho ho that's shop. fishing canada.com or you can go to fishing canada.com and go through the front door
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like I always do and go to uh the store button that's on the top Banner or
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Ribbon I guess you call it whatever you want to call it a little listener feedback before we get on to the dock uh
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this one comes to us from sasquash 365 I've seen that has he done it before Dean is he you're always you see that
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every week I think he may have written before yeah that sounds like s Sam Squan you know what I mean it sounds very I've
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never seen that before I must have been ill that day I was absent maybe more than once even sasquat 365 via Apple
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podcast uh he says in response to I'm saying he I don't know that to be a fact
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see I true well if you think of Sasquatch I mean how many there's no female sasquash I know how many women
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would give themselves that nickname is what I'm saying that's is whoever this is a
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few I've known a few who who would have been proud of that you would have been
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proud a Sasquatch every day of the year right there right I don't know why said
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that I have no idea why I said that I take that back I uh I think it's a guy
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I'm going to say it's a guy all right I'm going to guess that's go Squatch
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365 uh says in response to our our interview uh with in inspired Planet
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Productions that was episode 142 well you're good at remembering those numbers are you I am pretty good aren't I I know
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I remember Productions but you would think at my age that I would start slipping yeah you start leaving things
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out like you do like the J and B you leave the end out you know stuff like that so see if you do that I bet you
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wonder but that'll happen this episode okay Dean mark my words let's just keep an eye on that okay okay go ahead
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excellent episode boy oh God it's uh it's one of those days
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it's getting late in the year it it's getting towards the end of the year it is good beginning to look a lot like
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Christmas my friend it is uh excellent episode boys uh he says would you laugh
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that he goes on to say thanks for introducing these amazing documentaries to us and if you recall what he's
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referring to uh the folks at uh inspired planet were on this program inspired
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Planet Productions and they had this new camera with all kinds of great underwater footage we had them on here
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and we told you all about the amazing documentaries that they had produced in fact s sand squanch would to say I just
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watched all three documentaries and I got to say the first two made me feel a
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little bit down yeah I can see that yeah all that Doom and Gloom right uh but
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episode 3 brought me back to feeling positive and the footage was incredible of course that's what we uh were ranting
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and raving about the footage is unbelievable uh I can't believe that they actually discovered those sculpin
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that was in episode ft deep or something Sil and the tro porn was amazing as well
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there's a little teaser for you Trope horn was amazing as well so good
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point um yeah excellent I'm glad that people are they're listening they're watching
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the podcast and listening and checking checking things out or those are three good documentaries we have to have them back on the show TR porn right there
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four-way going on back there yeah we have to have them back on maybe produce another one we'll have to check them out
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yeah uh speaking of discovering interesting things a conservation Corner
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brought to you by this this would be a good one invasive species Center this would be a good one for them to for them
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to look into imagine if they could spot one if they could SP you know follow those around and see the wow we're
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talking about if you you don't know by now when we say conservation Corner brought to you by invasive species
10:34
Center uh there's a fish threatening our favorite species to fish and that is a
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grass carp the dreaded grass carp one of four species of Asian carp I didn't even
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know the other the other what are the other three there's a question for you was it Buffalo one of them no no the big
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head big head silver Sil oh man come on see I'm making it
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challenging now well we one he got the big head and I got the silver you not you didn't get nothing oh the black you
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said Buffalo I know buffalo buffalo I was just buffaloing you I was buffaloing in the first one then I then I got the
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silver in there after that anyways the grass carp is the one
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we're talking about um it was introduced to the southern us uh to control of all
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things to control aquatic plant growth too many weeds we got to get weeds but it makes sense if you if you have got to
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buy a machine buy a big cultivator do that you can't be doing that they still do that to this day no but you're
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destroying all kinds of other stuff doing that don't don't tell people to do that we'll have to have a whole let's
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put grass carpet instead that's a good plan no but we're not they did yeah now we're trying to keep them at Bay right
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uh anyways this Critter can eat up to 40% of its body weight daily of vegetation that's why they brought it in
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in the first place in the US I believe it was on the Mississippi River somewhere was it not Dean m i s is i s i
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p in Illinois yeah yeah I think right sure let's go with that that'll work too
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either one but I do remember there was a big in fact I remember I know you guys are going to think oh man is he old but
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I remember when the first this first happened because uh they got free due to
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flooding and there was this big whole big concern about where these grass carp would end up just in the US never mind
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in Canada what freaks me out that's the same thing that happened with common carp that's what we have common carp here you think
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you think they' have got their lesson learned by uh by that one but obviously not anyways this Critter is now knocking
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on the door in fact some of us believe and in fact if you listen to some of the
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uh scientists that there is DNA evidence to prove that this little critter the Most Wanted Critter that's on the screen
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behind us the grass carp is in fact swimming in Canadian Waters um up until recently we thought
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that had been taken care of with electronic dams and all kinds of stuff but obviously that didn't quite work boy
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are they putting a lot of money to that the US too eh oh my god um billions the
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biggest concern for us I mean yeah you could say it's just another fish but because it eats so much vegetation it
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wouldn't take long for it to I I'm not going to sound too doomy and gloomy but
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maybe I should wouldn't take long to devastate some of the sport fishing
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opportunities that we have taken for granted here in this country and that is you know correct whether it's a bass or
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Pike or musky or walleye or bluegill anything that you fish for it they all
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depend on vegetation and when you have a critter that can consume up to 40% of its body
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weight every day of vegetation does not take long to deplete that and and not just vegetation I I do believe they are
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Zoo planked and everything right so I mean that and that takes care of the whole food list in all our all of our
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species that we go after from from salmon to like an say bass musku Alli Etc yep so uh there's only one way to
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make sure that that doesn't happen or at least that we do our part and that is to be vigilant uh make sure you inform
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yourself on the habitat that this fish likes uh uh where it's apt to be found
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and more importantly what it looks like because if you don't know what it looks like you can't identify it download the
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imagery thank you go to Asian carp.com in your phone and have it on
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you every time you're on the water and just uh and keep it in mind if you get something that looks weird hey just a minute before I throw that fish back
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take a look hey I'd love the catch I'm not going to throw that fish back catch one I would too
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yeah it's going to actually it' be an incidental it' be they won't bite a plastic worm I don't think right I doubt
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very much but if you had you know trolling for Walley and in Great Lakes
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and lake eie or something like that and all of a sudden Boop yeah it would be imagine imagine the excitement level it
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would be pretty cool it would be I got to get we got to get them out of this water you got you got to be able to identify it first before you can well
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I'm I'm saying you and I were out there I think we've seen enough pictures of them we' know what it was at boat s side don't screw it up Pete to get that de
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under him oh can you imagine that you missed you bumped them off oh I cry woo
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baby oh yeah anyways um check it out get yourself uh Asian
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c.ca okay check it uh now we go from uh one odd looking Critter to another uh
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oldest depictions of fishing discovered in Ice Age art Dean talk to us about
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this what's going on this is my story to run through I do find this stuff interesting you do you do well then get
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us interested okay so if you're watching there's a picture of this thing behind the guys it's very hard to see what it
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is from this picture so we're going to have it on the fish but this more importantly is this right here yeah all
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these they figur that all the striations on it are depictions that they netted the fish so this is the old old
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depiction they have of a fish being netted um so this was uh
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15,800 years old so it's like during the Ice Age like the mammoths were around um
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at this time so this is the oldest depiction they ever had which they also figure means it must have had like some sort of cultural significance because
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usually people only depict art of things right that matter right yeah so anyways
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I thought it was kind of interesting it's the oldest one they've ever found it's in a a cave with pictures of mammoths and Wild horses and some other
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things that they used to hunt there wow that's so awesome um and then there's a bunch of other pictures in the article
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of like how they actually recreated the net in another study with like rope and
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some sticks and stuff that they thought they didn't have rope back then they made out of dried bark yeah twine they
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make their own kind of okay it wasn't rope then they just use bark strips or something right so all this is on the
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website but so so let me just ask a question that's cool are we saying that
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now we have proof that man back then was hunting fish for sustenance whereas
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before we didn't have proof we just assumed they assumed it was part of the diet and they didn't know how much of
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like a cultural significance it would have had or if it would have just been like incidental were Scavenging fish or
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whatever they would find spearing them in a in a creek or something something easy access but this is a whole different level hair mhm wow that's
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interesting that's so neat that is so cool and uh where did this story come from it came from a journal called plus
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one oh a catchy name you know huh and we have this uh now on the news on our site
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is be on fishing canada.com with all look like we are just we're not just fishing dudes all right let's be honest
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with this this this this scientist scientist history I mean geologist and we went from the net behind you to Liv
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scope that's the connection here and he's got the cone going that's like a that's the traditional right
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there going down like a perspective actually that's a great way to talk to tell people about the the way
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traditional works that's exactly it right there that one right there too fishing has been in our lives since
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the beginning of time let's let's let's just say that that's right fishing in one form or another much of a sport back
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then as it is now I'd like to know where the first person and there's got to be there's got
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to be some papers with that where was that first person who said you know what I like eating these things that's okay
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and I I love the taste of them and they feed my family but I want to go and just
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have fun with one of them tie tie one on the end of my rope and just wrestle
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wrestle around we an article on fish.com about the history of Catch and Release that talks all about that oh yeah we
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have another one up there yep no kidding y we must have missed that one Ang I must how the hell did that happen I
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wrote it you guys probably didn't read it oh wow was that a long time ago D long time ago oh jeez I've been waiting
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it's been on your desk since then can
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you no doubt it pass by us quick wrot that and I didn't even read it I feel
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terrible now D I'm going to take it home this week and read it I promise you if uh if you make it available but I I do
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like that on and what and said there there that they've been trapping these fish they're doing this killing and
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they're eating and all of a sudden they they found a better a better way of an easier way maybe they they still wanted
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to eat them and catch them and they're throwing this rope all of a sudden they're saying wow that's fun you there have to be some fun El yeah there had to
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be this fish jumps the tiger fish in Africa jumps out of the water or whatever like that why you why you tiger
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fish I'm saying the a crazy prehistoric looking fish that jumps okay that's what I'm saying I'm just use that as an
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example sturgeon sturgeon be better sturgeon sturgeon going to handl a sturgeon good luck with that Chuck holy
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anyways uh interesting it's all there on fishing canada.com who knew
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Dean that one day we would be talking about stuff like GE I we're evolving we're evolving uh
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fan question of the week brought to you by Fishfinder Doom talking about evolving excuse me say that again please
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fishfindermounts.com that's correct thank you I told you I'm I'm I'm getting lazy you are fish figh am Clairvoyant
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too you can see in the future I oh yeah I'm all over you but I'm going to
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correct you once more at least this show at least once more I'll guarantee it it's just the way it's happening I can
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see it I can feel it evolving it's organic here uh fishfindermounts.com
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fishfindermounts.com uh because you could say that they've brought the art
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of mounting uh sonar screens uh transducers they brought it out of the
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Dark Ages yeah into that's a good that's a good Segway it's a great segue I like
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that um and they bring you the fan question of the week which is my friend
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yeah well first off let's say it's submitted by Daniel heg Greenwood from British Columbia via email fishing uh
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info fishing canada.com is our email address that seems to be the way that everybody's doing it so I don't even know if we should push out that Facebook
21:20
you can do it on Facebook or Instagram because it just seems like the old email address is the one that's killing it right so anyway any one of those three
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would work question is what should I look for in a fishing net pros
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and fish that's right that's what you want pros and cons of mesh versus rubber
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does fish species make a difference or is it personal preference that's a great question see how I lined this up with
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the other net story yeah lucky you said that cuz I wouldn't have got that wasn't that wasn't a coincidence like you
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actually thought that through holy all about netting wow I I don't know why they talk bad about you around here cuz
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I think think you're doing a great job all right stuff like that I'm starting to believe in it now I start I was I had my doubts on Dean earlier but afterday
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like that how do you just come up with that just hook them right up you're unreal uh pros and cons of mesh versus
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rubber well I mean the obvious is that uh rubber is less apt to take the Slime
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coat off of fish yeah that was the real reason it was brought up it was I think
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that was a bass fishing tournament thing where they wanted toh have less damage
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potential damage to the fish there's going to be Catch and Release exactly um definitely Your Hooks uh you won't get
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snagged in your rubber net as much as you will in a meshnet that's for nylon meshnet that's for sure the hooks get
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tangled severely there's two Pros to rubber yeah do we have do we have a con
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to the rubber yes I have a cond to the rubber net I use them all the time I have a little special bass net it's tro
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B size I try to use that as much as I can but the problem with them they're never really deep Nets they're shallow
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Nets and if you had a bite product a bike CCH like a pike you wanted to take a pike home or you want to net them you
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going to take them home and eat them whatever I've had so many fish flip out of rubber Nets they just flip out cuz
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they're not deep enough they sag down the hoop the basket isn't deep enough the basket isn't deep enough that's
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right so they they make them kind of as compact as they possibly can so it's very but if you made a nice big deep one
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cuz the fish will sink into even deeper when you LIF it you know cuz the rubber stretches that's the only con I have of
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it what stretches more go ahead go ahead see how Clairvoyant I am of you I knew it I I I am God I got to give up man I
23:41
know this guy too well I got to get out of here the other the other problem is that they stretch too much and what I
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mean by that is sometimes you get especially Pike would be one fish sometimes walleye they'll actually force
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their way through and stretch one of the openings and get through the other side definitely do that but we're really I
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think we're reaching if we're looking as those as here's the way I I'll give you
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my opinion the way I choose a net I like a rubber net for bass fishing for sure I love a rubber net for bass fishing for
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sure but any when I start getting into bigger fish species I tend to go to the nylon the mesh type of Nets they're just
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like big Walley the bequin Walley for instance I would never use a rubber net on those late season big Walle I want
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one with a big opening and a big hoop and I want lots of Water Area mesh that I can have to scoop the fish let it sit
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like a Musky a Musky net and a pike net you want that fish you you notice the guys use the biggest most ridiculous
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looking Nets in the world musky Anglers they do that for a reason number one you get that big 50-inch fish into that hoop
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that's the that's the easy Advantage then that thing is it's a big deep net it's a live well they just sit there and
24:48
they never pull that fish out of the water until the hooks are clear and all that then they pull it up for a quick measure or a quick picture and then they
24:54
throw the fish back so the bigger the fish for me the the more uh apt to use nylon bigger Hoops bigger Nets so to to
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answer the question then because he does go on to say does fish species make a difference yes absolutely I I think so
25:09
yes absolutely all right time for a little fish talk with the doc uh this segment brought to you by sale The
25:15
Outdoor Store uh sir it's your home for all things fishing camping hunting uh
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clothing footwear I mean you name it they have got it oh we're there all the time they must have it CU we're there
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all the time a little too much by the way I saw the bill last month I'm not I wasn't overly impressed I know we got a
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habit you know we have to fix our habits every now and then so if you don't have a Sal store uh near you which is quite
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likely to happen uh just go to sale.ca that's their wonderful website
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uh you can get all kinds of things there that they have in the stores and you might even get 60% off on select items
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they have some great sales 20 30 40 50 60 and everything around it so I'd like to add them all up I did that last
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podcast it' be giving you money you take a jacket and give you money back be nice that' be nice for a change finally uh
26:04
that sale uh sail.ca now on for little fish talk yeah
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as promised at the beginning of the show Dr stepen Cook will join us now uh he uh for those of you who might not know is a
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uh biology professor at Carlton University publishes all kinds of stuff he has 700 peer reviewed papers we're
26:26
going to add one to that list I think today yes uh because we're going to talk about a recent study that uh Steven was
26:34
part of and he's going to discuss that has apparently not been published yet or is on the verge of being published and
26:39
it's all about forward-facing sodar which has been the talk for the last couple of years mostly Pros but there
26:46
are some Cons with it uh what say ye Stephen hello Stephen how are
26:51
you we're good so finally finally we've got some science behind all all of this
26:59
craziness called uh forward-facing sonar that which we knew was going to H or it should have happened right I kep saying
27:06
all the time the biologist got to get on this game because it's telling us a lot so I can imagine what they're going to be using it for so finally all right
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let's talk about this Stephen what have you discovered okay so what we did for
27:19
me I had to sit and type and and basically do you know head to the library do a bunch of reading and this
27:26
study is a synthesis or literature review so we went out there and we found everything that was published everything
27:32
that was in the works because this is so new there's about as much work you know
27:38
that's been it's sort of in the works that people are writing up work that's
27:43
underway and so we got some insight from those S some anecdotes from ongoing work
27:49
uh did some thinking did some reading we assembled a team that included uh Fisheries managers that have to deal
27:56
with this issue folks from the US and Australia that are wrestling with uh
28:01
with with these these issues and so this paper is all that information brought
28:07
together in one place you're like ai stepen ai there it is right there so yeah before we get into it so the the
28:14
the pros obviously have been all about the wonderful technology that allows Anglers now to see you know realtime
28:22
images uh that I know most most novice Anglers will say well I thought you guys always had that capability and it's not
28:29
true think that probably so this whole new uh scanning system allows us to see
28:34
things in real time it uh gives us a whole different view especially when you shift it to forward- facing sonar whole
28:41
different view of what we were accustomed to and we've all been saying how wonderful it is on the other side of
28:47
that coin people have been saying yeah well you know you really don't need all that technology and it's an unfair
28:54
advantage to the fish and you know this is going to be the end of fish fing as we know it cuz you guys are going to go
28:59
out there with all this this new stuff and you're going to catch all the fish then I won't get any that's kind of the
29:06
the game that is a foot right now um is there anything that you've discovered that may give any truth to those
29:13
comments at all either way yeah uh I think it's fair to say that not everybody that uses this
29:21
technology is the same uh it is not cheap and there's a steep learning curve
29:28
so there's a pretty big investment both both financially and time that you have to put in to get good at it and so I
29:35
think for that reason alone it will always be somewhat Niche it's not going
29:40
to be the average uh angler that goes out you know a handful of times across
29:45
the year or if they do they're probably not going to be very good at using the technology uh it's going to be those
29:50
folks fishing guides uh tournament Anglers professionals that uh really
29:56
really can dig it and and start to start to understand things and those folks tend to be on the better you know
30:03
there's sort of this gradient of of angling ability and expertise uh and if
30:08
you're a professional and a fishing guy uh you can probably get on fish uh most days of the week with or without
30:15
technology so uh so it's unclear how much of a game Cher it's going to be
30:20
relative to those folks that they're sort of dunking worms and you know maybe they're really good at catching panish
30:26
but uh probably aren't in a whole bunch of steel head or or musky so to me the uh you mentioned these guys and I know
30:33
the definitely the tournament Anglers have probably brought that to the Forefront for sure and they are they're
30:38
very good at uh scoping we call it live scoping or forward viewing whatever but the guy that really a person that really
30:45
would get a good Advantage would be the fishing guides as you mentioned because those fishing guides with people that are listening here that have never had a
30:50
fishing guide before normally that person doesn't even fish they're in the back of the boat and they're just putting you in areas where they fish
30:57
well if now if they have a a Liv scope on a on a pole right beside them as you're fishing away they're looking and
31:03
looking all they're doing is scanning and looking all day long they don't have they're not fishing their concentration is not at casting it's so they're just
31:10
they're sucking in they're sponging in all that information and then all of a sudden day after day after day and all of a sudden they're going hey uh Angelo
31:17
cast right over there right there 30 no bring it back in C there perfect Let It Drop be ready boom you know what I mean
31:24
those the fishing guides would be the and then is that not the unfair Fair advantage that some folks are talking
31:29
about because because take that same scenario um in Years Gone by chances are
31:37
pretty good that that client would not have made contact with that fish because the guy didn't see it in the first place
31:44
so maybe maybe there's something there that would say it's an unfair Advantage
31:50
but but I don't understand the unfair part we go out to recreate whether I'm
31:57
playing golf or tennis or whatever I go out because I want to do well at it
32:03
right I don't want to go out golfing with my buddies you don't hire a fishing guy to not catch fish well that's
32:09
it I have a hard time understanding those comments about unfair
32:14
Advantage at the end of the day from what I've read on your stuff
32:20
Stephen the guy still has to catch a fish put it in the boat seeing right
32:25
seeing that fish is wonderful and I'll tell you what is done for us we probably
32:30
fish less today than we did say 5 years ago what I mean by that is we spend less
32:36
time Fishing and More Time searching watching and learning yeah so so we
32:41
actually spend less time at it than before but when we do we generally catch
32:47
more fish does that make sense yeah and you know I think the best Anglers are
32:53
those that understand the relationships between the environment and fish and this is another tool that allows us to
33:01
do that in fact if you think back you know this technolog partly come out of the military realm but it's also come
33:07
out of the the research realm uh you know uh this is work that's been used to
33:14
uh um map uh different uh habitats you know seaf Flor in the Arctic and and so
33:21
on uh and to be able to bring that into your boat and instead of just simply looking at a you know a nav chart that
33:27
says hey there's a rock pile over there uh you can see that pile in great detail you can see how the fish are relating to
33:34
that or other things maybe it's it's the thermocline maybe it's a uh you know
33:40
where a a tributary is flowing in and you can see sort of where that you know
33:45
that the murky water perhaps that's coming from that tributary and where fish are holding to that and I've always
33:51
argued that the you know that the way to get better at fishing is more time on the water but that's really just more
33:58
time observing those those interactions so if this speeds up that process so that you can learn about habitat better
34:05
I think I think eventually it'll help people become better Anglers more quickly uh if they're able to put in the
34:11
time and really get to know the technology H especially younger kids who are getting into fishing because the
34:18
older people like us I'll tell you right now and you're probably experiencing this uh Steve as well it's a real
34:25
learning process okay if you think you could just go out and spend a couple of thousand bucks and put this equipment on
34:32
your boat and all of a sudden uh you've upped your Game Boy you got got a long way because the learning process is
34:39
really steep for us now having said that I can see a 17 18 year old kid getting
34:45
his first forward- facing or just scoping equipment to start with and he
34:51
would just jump on it like that whereas it takes us forever just to figure out
34:56
what buttons do what Advantage the kids would have nowadays is they'd be watching all this footage on YouTube we never had that when this first came out
35:02
right and now they're seeing these screens and they're seeing what it looks like so when Ang and I first got Liv Scope when it first came out we thought
35:08
what the hell is this you know what I mean we kept turning back to the traditional side and we kept turning like not looking at it at all not I
35:14
think the first season we we turn it on and try and turn it on and try and then turn it off you know and we were too
35:20
embarrassed to tell anybody that we didn't we didn't know how to do use it so say oh yeah it's great man it's
35:25
really it's great there buy it come on but but but it after you know after
35:31
using it for a couple months and not and then this this winter went along he said okay we got to get good at this we got
35:36
to and then we just started bearing down and and working at it and and now I say we're pretty efficient at it now so and
35:43
it's uh it's fun too it is fun it's a blast it uh it's changed our fishing
35:49
lives completely just as a side note it must be changing the scientific
35:55
community's fishing lives as as well I would think especially you guys more
36:00
than anybody else because most of your work is trying to figure out how fish
36:05
react the various things and before without having eyes underwater it must
36:10
have been really tough now you can literally see how a fish relates to a piece of structure or better yet current
36:17
or temperature changes or light changes like it's got to be a game changer for
36:22
you guys what would you be looking for Stephen what would scientists when they have their they finally mounted on live
36:28
uh you know live viewing what would you guys be looking for as as a compared to Anglers let's say right so I'm very much
36:35
interested in helping managers do their job better and protecting habitat is job number one of most of our Fisheries
36:41
managers in Canada if we don't have good habitat if that's not protected then we've got nothing to fish for and so
36:48
what this does is it helps us make those connections exact same connections that you that uh you know that you were
36:53
making when you're out in the water as an anger uh but being able to do that quantitatively so normally what we would
37:00
have done in the past is brought animals into the lab and put them in tanks and given them you know you you know you
37:06
guys get rock you know rock substrate and you guys get sand and you guys get silt and see which ones they prefer and
37:12
which ones they do better in uh we can go out in nature we can throw on a mask and a snorkel or a uh deploy an ROV but
37:22
that's really short term uh and uh the fish tend to react to it see that
37:28
there's something down there they they turn and look at us when we're snorkeling they they uh look at the ROV
37:34
and start following it around whereas the sonar allows us to really get an idea of what the fish are doing without
37:41
them knowing that we are there uh and that's the the real benefit yeah it's I can tell you I think
37:49
in the last couple of years there have been at least two or three episodes one is going to be coming up uh this January
37:57
where had we not had this technology on the boat we would not have had an episode period and I'm thinking the the
38:04
lake trout uh on tamogami both Lake trouts both lake trout one Dean did too
38:09
yeah we would not have caught we didn't even know those fish were there we let alone that they're catchable so it does
38:17
change things but I do also want to caution folks just as you're doing now and especially with the study is that it
38:22
it is not the game Cher that most Anglers will experience because you have
38:30
to have a certain level already in order to take advantage of it it's just not
38:35
something you can bolt on your boat and say okay let's go out and catch them right so um obviously this study talks
38:43
to that I know uh there's some geographical differences of results that
38:48
you've got in your study and I wonder why that would be I know there's some jurisdictions where you've definitely
38:54
seeing an uptick on the catches and other where it makes no difference at all what do you attribute that to
39:01
Stephen yeah when you really drill into a lot of those studies there's still so few of them there's always other
39:07
differences than just where they they've been done uh so um oftentimes what
39:13
they'll do is they'll set up boats and they'll put Anglers of equal ability in a boat that has the sonar and another
39:20
boat that does they compare those uh or in another study
39:25
they'll have the experts and then they'll have somebody that's out there in the rowboat and they'll compare their catches and not surprisingly uh in that
39:32
latter case they're quite different because you know the pros know how to you know they've got the equipment they know how to use it they're already
39:38
catching more fish uh when you put people head-to-head that are frankly you know you know poor to maybe okay with
39:46
the technology it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference so you really really have to have to uh to truly
39:54
understand its power and it's uh and how to it how to interpret it uh to get
39:59
anything meaningful out of it um you know I was out with John Anderson a musy
40:05
guide on the otwa river uh last fall and
40:10
uh I remember him showing us big big fish swimming around I was like oh my
40:15
God I got a cast over there he's like nope that's a sturgeon and I'm like no it's a huge you know and and sure enough
40:22
he was able to point out the fins the you know the the archetype of the fish
40:27
where you could clearly see that it was a sturgeon and then of course I'm fix I love sturgeon and I wasn't going to
40:33
catch any with a you know a big musky spinner but uh watching those animals on
40:39
screen checking them out so again going back to how we'll be able to use this uh for rare or endangered fish that we you
40:46
know if we don't have to catch them uh it's a it's a great tool as well I was
40:52
going to ask you of uh of all of the studies that you've looked into so far was there a lot of they're getting so
40:58
technical now that guys can tell the difference between species and fish like I mean obviously a long and lean sturgeon a sturgeon and a Musky of the
41:06
same length it'd be pretty hard to tell the difference unless you're really trained but is the is the average angler getting better at iding species now that
41:13
youve that you because it's still hard for for for me I think it an as well bass is a bass you can't tell a large Mo
41:19
from a small Mo there's no way you can but sometimes you can tell a large M from a walleye but sometimes you can't so it fools
41:25
us yeah this is certainly getting better but I think we're relying on our intuition for example if you're you know
41:33
in the middle of Lake Simco you know and you're fishing in 30 feet of water and there's a rock pile uh you're probably
41:40
going to be fishing smalles if you see a cloud of fish under there right uh so I
41:45
think we make inferences as you know we we pull upon other knowledge sources that we have uh and so so I haven't seen
41:53
much evidence of that the same thing well ice fishing oh there's a cloud of fish uh and maybe you can tell crappy
41:59
from a yellow perch uh that kind of thing because their body shapes are so different but those might also be a big
42:05
school of bluegill uh you know I don't think we're at the point I'm not sure we ever will where we're GNA be able to
42:11
tell fish as you said a small mouth from a large mouth without making guesses based on the Habit the general habitats
42:18
uh where we're fishing I'll tell you one of the greatest uh I think results that
42:24
we've had uh because it it's in areas where we normally would not spend a lot of time
42:30
fishing and that is open water uh forward-facing sonar has changed that
42:35
game completely to the point and and you maybe can agree or disagree on this Dr
42:40
Cook we now think that at any given time on any given body of water any species
42:48
of fish can be found either deep or shallow meaning before it was
42:55
traditionally thought that you know bass for example a smallmouth bass if you want to have a great day at fishing
43:01
Smallmouth well you got to be from Shore out to maximum 20 ft they're going to be somewhere roaming around there so I'm
43:08
going to invest most of my time fishing in those areas well we've since
43:14
discovered that while that may be good and while that may be productive turn
43:19
the boat around and look the other way because there's an equal amount of opportunity sitting out there in open
43:26
water with feeding fish so what we've discovered is that it's a whole lot
43:31
easier to catch feeding fish than it is trying to catch fish that are hunkered down behind a rock or underneath a piece
43:38
of wood or right in the thick thickest weed you know Edge that you can find
43:44
they may be a little more difficult to coax out of that mode that they're in but those guys out there in open water
43:50
that are just chowing down on bait balls all over the place they're a whole different ball game and that's the
43:55
biggest difference I think that we've noticed and you know with this technology to expand on what an just
44:01
saying the average angler is that Shoreline to 20 foot those fish are pressured those ones out there haven't
44:07
even seen a lure so not only they eating and hungry they haven't seen any pressure at all so there's a big advantage to that one too so yeah it's
44:13
huge it it's opened our eyes up it happened again this year at obaba was when Dean and I Steve were out and Dean
44:20
was on lake trout and all of a sudden here these Smallmouth out 90 ft of water coming right up to the boat like what
44:25
the hell dude who is fish them before yeah exactly so craziness it's more
44:30
fishable water and that may in fact spread pressure out which isn't a bad thing you know you know I know you guys
44:38
like fishing lily pads and the slop as well that stuff gets hammered because we know bass live there uh so if half the
44:46
guys are are looking for them in the other direction you know it it takes a bit of the pressure off um the challenge
44:52
of course is that it is if uh and I think you know we all love a good Shore
44:57
lunch uh but we also make good decisions as as responsible Anglers um if
45:02
somebody's really Harvest oriented uh it does provide the opportunity for really
45:08
hammering fish and doing it very very quickly absolutely and once again we'll go back
45:13
to guides this tool I think is if if any group angling group uh stands to get the
45:20
most benefit out of it it is guiding because you just mentioned you know these guides go out there and when it's
45:26
Shoreline or Shor lunch time they've got to have fish in the boat for Shor lunch yeah they got to produce this tool would
45:31
be perfect and is perfect for them and it's paying big dividence for sure for sure yeah M you got to can I go just
45:39
expand on that a little bit more it might go to the point and this I'd have no problem with this at all myself but
45:46
maybe some people that the catch and keep and kill and eat people all the time will have a problem with that but if forward facing is so effective it's
45:53
getting more popular more popular than the M&S of the areas the D ours they're going to have to start cutting back the limits a little more then you know what
45:59
I mean well it'll help scientists like keep the population oh you know what now some people that don't have are going to
46:05
be pissed off cuz all you Liv scopers got our limit dropped down but but honestly it's all about the fish right
46:11
it's h so I mean you're your 30 your 30 crappy limit per person now goes down to
46:16
a 20 you know what I mean or something like that or or or bass bass is a perfect example they're the ones that
46:22
are most looked at and most used for lives scoping we don't need to keep six bass per person you me and Steven deing
46:28
go out that's 24 bass we don't need to keep 24 bass and you know what I mean so maybe knock that down to four fish per person or three fish per person so I
46:35
don't know that's just uh maybe that's what it'll come to but then our our Ministries are going to have to look into that right and use a sence against
46:41
it exactly and those are the discussions I think that are happening and they're much more palatable than should we ban
46:48
this technology that is problematic in a a number of ways um there are instances in
46:55
which uh uh natural resource management agencies do ban certain technology you
47:01
can't go hunting with grenades uh or or Mount guns on on drones and fly them
47:07
around to to shoot Wild Turkey um you know there are Waters where we can't have a Barb on a hook or we can't use
47:14
live bait so there are some regulations that exist that are sort of gear focused
47:20
uh but I I I think that this is one where if pressure as a whole increases
47:25
Harvest pressure then you could either do targeted regulations so if that is on
47:31
the vessel you're using then that cuts you know then that you know then you you have a
47:38
reduced limit relative to a vessel that that doesn't but at this point yeah
47:45
there's not really you a lot of the natural resource management agencies are sort of sitting back and saying huh you
47:50
know I I'm not really sure what we should do about this yet uh there was a couple months ago the American am sport
47:57
fishing Association put on a webinar uh that I attended and I actually sent a
48:02
copy of this to every participant afterwards uh there were about 150 folks
48:07
on there and including most of the fish Chiefs from uh the uh the US states a
48:13
couple Canadian Representatives lots of Industry folks and uh tournament reps
48:19
and so on so a lot of people are thinking about this but at the same time there's not a whole lot of action uh in
48:24
terms of change where we've seen that is is the bass tournament scene and we've seen three very different responses all
48:31
it was sort of late August early September uh we actually had to update our paper the paper had already been
48:37
accepted and uh we were musing about what might happen uh and we we updated
48:43
it to say Hey you know this is what actually happened uh and so I think
48:48
there were some really Creative Solutions in there you know what do you think about that your personal opinion
48:55
what do you think about uh tournaments that are starting to control the use of this technology
49:02
and some cases eliminate it completely what's your personal opinion you're an angler I'm talking to you as an angler
49:07
what's your personal opinion to that I I like some of the changes um there's some changes that are purported to be for
49:14
safety I can't speak to the you know to the extent to how how much view is
49:20
disrupted by screens at different heights of different angles but safety has been used as a premise for limiting
49:27
screen size or screen volume on the front of a boat uh and uh if indeed that
49:33
is an issue then that seems lofty you know just like we don't want drunks driving boats around we don't want
49:39
people with obstructed views so so that's you know uh I think a reasonable
49:44
reason to think about limiting the amount of uh Hardware you know you don't want a you know a 72inch screen mounted
49:51
on the front of your boat that's that's problematic so well you want that we just don't want people to drive around with that
49:57
I could use one of those oh God that be so uh but you know I like the idea that
50:04
uh I think it MLF has days where you you basically can fish one day with and one
50:10
day without or going to Waters where it probably isn't going to help you so you
50:15
know a really shallow weed choked water body uh it's not going to do a lot of
50:21
good for anybody you're just going to keep seeing uh you know just nothing but a a wall of of weeds um so I like the
50:29
idea of of mixing it up uh I like seeing people catch fish I less like watching
50:36
somebody motor around in the middle of a lake uh looking for those fish to catch
50:42
uh I can watch that in a f minute highlight reel whereas watching someone you know Chuck frogs over lily pads I
50:48
can watch that all day because you never know when something's going to explode and uh I think the Anglers tell you a
50:55
lot more too when they're fishing I I feel like they're more talkative when they're uh actually fishing as opposed
51:01
to searching they're so focused on the screen there it's not as in in my P my perspective is they aren't as talkative
51:08
so I'm less likely to to watch that kind of fishing as well so so I I like the changes I also like that they all did
51:15
something different and so if an angler if a tournament angler feels really strongly or if a viewer feels really
51:21
strongly there are options out there if you don't like what MLF did you can look at what Bas did or Versa there's another
51:27
smaller organization uh npfl npfl thank you uh
51:34
you know so you can sort of shift around based on where your your interests are so yeah that's my take yeah it's it's
51:41
interesting I don't know where it's all going to end up I'm hoping that uh much like the conversation we had a few
51:47
minutes ago where where uh novice Anglers will use it as an opportunity to
51:52
grow uh into the sport and get better at their their uh fishing by using this
52:00
technology it will you know listen if we had that closed mind
52:05
approach to using technology and fishing we'd still be holding on to a branch
52:11
with a string on it and and a you know piece of Steel for a hook everything that we look at in fishing it's all
52:18
evolved through technology whether it's fishing line whether it's rods and reels
52:23
talking about going to the sa store going to that upstairs to that sail store you're going to see technology yet its best right there everything is so
52:28
this is not unique and uh but it's the first one that's really caught the
52:33
headlines about it being sort of an unfair advantage to whoever I don't know maybe unfair to the fish possibly I
52:40
don't know but that's kind of the headlines that we've seen in this one I've never seen I don't recall you know when graphite was first used in fishing
52:47
rods which by the way I think was one of the biggest breakthroughs that we very seldom talk about today the difference
52:54
between using a a full glass Rod versus a graphite Rod back in the 70s it was
52:59
night and day and don't tell me for one minute that there was not an advantage to Anglers who were using graphite
53:06
versus the latter absolutely so it's really no different but this one is kind of it's bigger it's more glamorous it's
53:13
more it's also bigger though because of the the unaffordability of it you gra
53:19
rods they were unaffordable they were they were yeah but it wasn't thousands it was you know it was 100 bucks you
53:25
know versus whatever so maybe that maybe that's part of it too is those that can't you can't afford it are already
53:30
pissed off and they don't you know they know they never will afford it or whatever I might be I'm not sure but that's one of the things I'm thinking it
53:36
might be well I think this stuff's going to come down in prices as time goes by too right it's like anything else right
53:42
now we're paying for that uh research and development of this technology and
53:47
so we are paying for it as Anglers but I think in time that price will I mean it's just chips right it's chips and
53:53
wiring the prices have got to come down as yeah there are a couple interesting
54:00
examples um one is paddlefish so for folks that that don't know about
54:05
paddlefish uh really common fish sort of in central Midwest so if you go down say
54:10
in Missouri area or Southern Illinois there's there decent numbers of them uh in big rivers and reservoirs so so in
54:17
other words damned uh damned Rivers uh and they are uh planktivores kind of
54:24
like the freshwater whale shark right they just swim around with their mouths open and they filter feet there's just a
54:30
lot going in they just take in a lot of water and so there's legal snagging
54:36
Fisheries I know in Canada we're not used to to snagging but that's how you catch uh paddlefish and so traditionally
54:43
it was either blind snagging or you would go out with uh uh you know a traditional fish binder and you'd find a
54:49
cloud of fish that are big and you know and and hope they're there and you know bring your your jigging spoon to the
54:55
right depth and jig away uh but again it's truly snagging they're not taking swipes at at it so uh and again legal
55:04
where it's where it's legal to do so um the issue now is that it's very easy to
55:10
snag no kidding so I think there's going to be
55:16
examples of where there will need to be regulations that are very very context
55:21
specific uh people eat paddlefish they smoke paddlefish uh and the paddlefish
55:27
are getting smoked right now by uh folks that are are using Sonar and so that's
55:32
an example of a very specific very specialized fishery where I would anticipate some regulations to ensure
55:39
that we have paddlefish for tomorrow uh but I I'm unaware of any similar
55:46
examples or unique species in Canada where we're starting to really think
55:51
about this that's the or or frankly any other species it's a very very unique
55:57
circumstance uh that uh that that probably merits some some attention
56:02
there's been a lot of sorry didn't even know that existed there been a lot of talk in the
56:08
musky World um as now people are sitting there they're out in the open water
56:14
Ang's talking about their open water and boom there she is she's looks like a 48 incher and they had never known it was
56:20
there before and now they just follow it around follow it for hours and doing that there's there's been a
56:26
controversial talk about that and you know that does sound like a legit you know argument there for sure that you're
56:32
just on that fish and staying on that fish until it bites or it doesn't bite but uh you're harassing it you're
56:37
basically kind of harassing and that could be a valid point too I mean it's I I don't think we're anywhere near the
56:43
end of the story it's it's going to be ongoing and especially now that there are papers that people can follow and
56:48
read I think it's going to open up a lot more in terms of studies and uh maybe
56:54
it'll educate us all a lot more more too just knowing for example and I don't know whether you guys have even thought
57:00
about this yet and I'm talking to Scientific Community um I'd love to see a study on how the fish is affected by
57:08
the signal because because I I have a belief in it in in that the fish senses um
57:16
these signals and I think the fish in time can make adjustments to these signals which means we are going to have
57:23
to adjust ourselves as well on how we use this technology the manufacturers of
57:29
this technology are frantically working on that as we speak to change the way
57:35
those frequencies are put out by these units because it's like anything else
57:40
you know Stephen you're of the age will you remember you know you used to be
57:45
able to catch as many smallmouth bass in the Kingston area on of Lake Ontario as
57:51
you possibly could ever want on a white spinner bait well there was a period of time that you would not even get a sniff
57:59
on a white spinner bait anymore because these fish had had however they evolve they evolv to know that that color that
58:07
sound the frequency of that spinner whatever the case was it just isn't going to do it anymore yeah that's not
58:14
food right it's not food so get in fact not only is it not food but it's going to harm us so run the other
58:20
way the sonar manufacturers are going to have to deal with that as time goes on we've been in Lakes where uh we've known
58:29
that there's been a lot of pressure from Elite Anglers with forward-facing sonar
58:36
where the fish would definitely react farther away than normal react to the
58:43
signal meaning you could see that they were put off by it is there anything in the works on on studying that element
58:52
here not that I'm aware of and I'm not going to pretend I know the sensory physiology space well enough to tell you
58:59
what's known or not just more broadly about fish and and these signals we certainly know that some marine mammals
59:06
uh are obviously quite sensitive to to certain frequencies and and so on uh but
59:12
uh uh and there's restrictions as well you can't just go out and invent something on any and all frequencies the
59:19
military and government sort of control the frequencies that you have access to when blasting signals into the uh into
59:25
the environment so yeah it's it's certainly something to keep our eye on the other thing those also boats boats
59:33
that are you know they're used to you know boat zooming overhead right but maybe a little less so you know uh you
59:39
know what you know what's it look like to be H you know 40 feet down and looking up at a a boat you know in Clear
59:45
Water uh what does that trolling motor sound like so there's other cues that they may become accustomed with that
59:52
they decide that they they don't like uh it it may not be just the forward facing
59:58
sonar or it may not even be the forward facing son because we're just again
1:00:03
we're fishing it's new fishable water and we're fishing it differently there would have been you know there's always
1:00:08
the odd boat that historically you know we would have seen that boat out there and we'd be like oh those morons don't
1:00:14
know what they're doing or you would have seen you know there's some people that just like to troll uh you know they spend their whole day just trolling
1:00:20
around cleaning lures uh and you know on occasion you know you get lucky when you're trolling you know even when you
1:00:26
don't know what you're doing uh so those fish would have been on encountered on
1:00:31
occasion uh but but pretty rarely whereas now you know and you know you
1:00:38
multiple boats sort of hovering following uh you can imagine quickly how that might be something that the fish
1:00:44
learn to uh dislike and avoid and what does that mean who knows it may mean
1:00:50
just getting smarter and they continue to do their same thing maybe they'll go deeper maybe they'll go back in Shallow
1:00:55
who knows so that'll keep us guessing won't it yeah when we when an and I talked to some Garmin uh uh I guess what
1:01:03
are you techs or technicians yeah and we asked them in in in the summer last summer if they were looking into this
1:01:09
technology because it's a big thing about that and they said not really yet guys we haven't really dug into it yet
1:01:14
but they didn't say no we're not going to but they didn't uh you know and I mean because it could be a detriment
1:01:21
right if the the the sonar company comes up with oh my God the fish are feeling all our stuff here you know you put that
1:01:26
out to everybody that's not good but in the same sense if it was a positive say yeah they feel it but they don't care
1:01:31
yeah they're going to rely on uh on anger's feedback right as as time goes on this is all too new too fresh yet to
1:01:38
for anybody to make any huge decisions One Way St said I I've said this all the
1:01:43
line I think Steven said there's the combination you think it's the lives goope putting them off but that boat in
1:01:48
35t away 40 ft away from that fish they see that giant boat there too they see that silhouette they hear that trolling
1:01:54
motor they hear the spinning around you know what I mean they got to hear it all so
1:02:00
we're attributing to life scope only but meanwhile we got the $100,000 wor a rig there that they're they don't see it
1:02:06
they ignore it no so or they've gotten used to it too there's the other point to make too the more people use it the
1:02:11
more they'll climatize to it same as a noteboard motor I mean you can run over top of fish with noteboard motor and
1:02:17
then stop and fish them and catch them like how how does that work you can't tell me that an upboard motor going full
1:02:23
speed down the lake is any less you know is more stealthy than than one of these
1:02:28
forward facing son the the lakes that we go to up North for the walleye guys they they leave that motor on all the time
1:02:35
you stop okay boys Drop here 7t of water you're catching up left right and
1:02:40
Center is like what the hell okay you've spent enough time underwater you've spent enough time researching this is
1:02:46
what you do for a living can you finally dispel something for us because I'm one
1:02:52
of these morons who thinks less is more the less noise I can make the less you
1:03:00
know introduction of sounds that the fish is not used to the more apt it's going to bite and yet Pete makes a great
1:03:07
Point most guides will leave that outboard motor running all day long as they sit on top of a school of walleye
1:03:14
and catch them like crazy you've been down there you've seen it tell us does an outboard motor spook these
1:03:21
fish uh we've actually done some research on that actually I know tell us
1:03:26
yeah so what we do is we use an underwater microphone which is called a hydrophone uh and we record boat sounds
1:03:33
and then we play them back we can record a bass booat no bassboat sound at different speeds uh and we can do uh you
1:03:41
know pleasurecraft whatever you know a tinner with a 99 on the back the reason
1:03:46
we do that and don't just run boats around is that allows us to decouple the noise versus the wave action or other
1:03:54
things that that come come along with it so in terms of the sound for most fish
1:04:00
they seem not to care a whole lot it's not like they they swim away they just
1:04:06
keep doing their thing you're killing me one of the ways that we did this
1:04:14
because to to ask that question you kind of need to have fish that are in a place that you can watch them so we've taken
1:04:20
baths that are guarding their nests and we've put cameras on them and then what we do is we play sound at various
1:04:27
distances out and we've done it across different nesting phases because they're not going to go anywhere or if they do
1:04:32
go somewhere it's bad for the nest and so we look to see whether or not boat noise changed their behavior and the
1:04:39
answer is no uh they continue to stick around and do their thing uh even quite
1:04:45
loud and quite close to it um and the only evidence of disruptions from that
1:04:51
isn't from the noise but if you're blasting wakes along the shoreline which
1:04:57
you know resuspend sediment and just create a turbulent environment for those
1:05:03
those fish so the noise doesn't seem to be uh a big deal they they certainly uh
1:05:10
you know we've got access to to some private research lakes and we're going to be doing some more work this uh uh
1:05:16
this coming summer uh those private research lakes and um we do a lot of work at Queens University Biological
1:05:23
Station in eastern Ontario and so we have l that have never had an outboard motor on them uh and so we're going to
1:05:30
do some experiments there to see if the fish in those systems respond differently which will give us a clue as
1:05:36
to whether or not fish in in other Lakes where they're used commonly whether they've simply learned and gotten used
1:05:43
to it or whether it's just across the board fish just do not do not care yeah
1:05:49
there you go buddy thank you stepen by the way thank you cuz now I can keep that motor running cuz I hate pulling that some every time come on let
1:05:55
me just leave it going I'm lazy it just bothers me how's that it bothers me more than the fish obviously thank you st
1:06:03
that said I will shut the motor off every time I can't imagine pulling up on a spot I want a fish and if somebody
1:06:09
else in the boat's you know banging around if my kids are making too much noise and jumping around like you know
1:06:15
I'll be the first one to to shush them uh you know there's something you know
1:06:21
in my my psyche that you know partly it's to concentrate uh you know if I especially when I've just pulled up on a
1:06:26
spot I'm trying to dissect it you know hope for a few you know quick quick fish
1:06:32
uh but it's it's also the fishing experience I like some Solitude in my life when I'm uh when I'm fishing uh I
1:06:39
like to disconnect from technology uh I don't like to be looking at my screen so
1:06:45
uh you know so I think that's also going to play into overall how things like forward facing Sona are embraced uh if
1:06:52
you spend Monday to Friday 9 to5 staring at a computer screen uh doing it on
1:06:58
Saturday all day Saturday and Sunday as well uh even if you're on a boat uh
1:07:03
might not be the most desirable thing so it's going to come down to individual Choice uh individual pocketbooks and at
1:07:10
the end of the day I don't think it's going to be managers that are going to be making uh the decision um nor do I
1:07:16
think Society is going to weigh in on this in the way that I think some folks thought they might you know this idea
1:07:22
that you know the public at large thinks this is unsporting uh I I frankly don't think
1:07:28
that they they care I think it's you know even though our social media feeds are filled with
1:07:34
this others are not yeah uh and you know average Jane and Joe are not not reading
1:07:40
about forward- facing sonar and they're focused on uh on other things so uh you
1:07:46
know will there be philosophers and uh folks that study ethics that dig into
1:07:52
this probably there's some interesting case studies to explore here that's not what I do um nor is that what Fisheries
1:07:59
managers do Fisheries managers are out there to make sure that resources are managed for the benefit of all and uh as
1:08:07
long as everybody has the opportunity to get out in the water and catch fish uh that's why we invest so much in good
1:08:13
Shoreline fishing opportunities so that you don't have to own a boat so that you can go to the uh go to the local tackle
1:08:21
shop and spend reasonably little money and go out and fix fish in Ontario and
1:08:26
still catch fish or if you want to spend big money you can do that too uh to to
1:08:31
each their own so yeah Stephen has there ever been up until like right now this
1:08:37
is all about the forward facing and all that but let's say when Side Imaging came out did you have to write up a paper on that saying everybody was
1:08:43
worried about oh my God like now I'm seeing 100 feet out each side of my boat and I'm seeing fish and I'm seeing rocks and all this or is this the first time
1:08:49
you've had to write up a paper on electronics and the changing of the electronics yeah this is the first time
1:08:55
time and it's really we had been we've been musing about technology more broadly uh and how basically pushing
1:09:03
managers to think proactively instead of having to wait till you know 10 years later they missed a window to uh uh to
1:09:11
act um in this case I I don't think a window has been missed I think Fisher managers have been paying attention uh
1:09:18
and yeah I you know before we had forward- facing sonar even though we
1:09:24
called them fish finders they were really depth Sounders right they and the
1:09:29
game change you know if you're in the middle of nowhere you would spot fish on there occasionally but uh you know a
1:09:36
decent number of false positives I used it to M so I knew how deep the water was
1:09:41
and the some of the um the those sort of newer versions that really let us to see
1:09:47
the habitat that was exciting to be able to see a tree to be able to see a rock
1:09:53
pile how big are those rocks uh that even if I don't see fish that gives me an idea how to fish it um and
1:10:00
just because you didn't see Fish didn't mean that they weren't there uh forward facing sonar of course is a different
1:10:06
different ball game it it it allows you to see both the habitat and the fish so
1:10:12
yeah the the previous sort of Side Imaging type sonar I think we were all ooing and awing over the habitat but it
1:10:18
wasn't I I and that I do think makes you be a better angler but I wasn't seeing any more fish on on that uh that type of
1:10:25
Technology but again maybe I'm using it incorrectly so then having said all of
1:10:31
that I'm going to restrict you you will not have this technology on your personal fishing craft this coming
1:10:36
summer are you good with that yeah yeah I can I can that all right uh I I like
1:10:42
to because I can't I can't say that okay I cannot say that totally I cannot say
1:10:48
that I I am still struggling to learn so I'm not Adept enough with it that I am
1:10:55
confident and so and it also comes down to I just spend so much time in front of screens that uh uh I want to engage it's
1:11:03
usually my boys and uh that you know trying to find fish to fish for uh isn't
1:11:09
as exciting as as fishing so I I go to where I'm quite certain there's fish even if they might be smaller than uh
1:11:18
than than what you can find elsewhere I'll take the sure thing and a you know
1:11:23
a a pile of pants fish any day because it keeps the kids occupied what about
1:11:28
Carlton University are they going to be embracing or do they have already forward facing ster units so I have
1:11:35
several students in my lab that are so I would be the one that that has to buy it as a researcher and I actually have
1:11:41
money to buy a unit and we intend to buy one um I've got money to buy more units
1:11:46
my issue is that there's only a few of us that are even remotely capable with
1:11:52
them and uh you know I I don't recruit students based on their ability to
1:11:58
identify fish uh fishable fish with forward- facing sonar we have people that you know do a Masters on birds and
1:12:04
come to our lab and do fish and so on uh and I worry a lot about the technology changing pretty quickly so we mounted on
1:12:11
the front of the boat and uh three or four years down the road it's you know
1:12:16
you know it's more to maintain it's more to be stolen uh so uh for those reasons
1:12:22
I think we're going in on one unit this coming year but we're not going all in on all of our boats we have seven boats
1:12:28
in our lab and it's just just too much I don't have seven people that it would be
1:12:35
a summer of nothing but but training folks to become proficient and uh it's
1:12:40
it's just we're not there yet so uh I'm hoping uh that for simpletons like me uh
1:12:46
that the uh technology will become even easier to use in the future I still you
1:12:52
know I'm looking at it trying to figure out what I need to my head you know zooming in and zooming out um that's
1:12:59
still where I'm at but again my my 14-year-old you hand him a you know you put he and I beside each other playing a
1:13:06
video game uh you know if it's a car game I'm off the road or if it's a shooting game I've got a a bullet in the
1:13:12
forehead about three seconds in uh whereas he's usually the last one standing with all the folks he's playing
1:13:18
with online so I think this is generational so good on both of you uh well done
1:13:25
well I'll tell you it it comes at a cost it comes at a cost exactly what Stephen
1:13:30
said we were we started the same way as you did buddy you have to spend time at it and one thing I can sort of throw out
1:13:38
there is that uh sometimes because the technology is so like out there when you
1:13:44
think about it sometimes we we over complicate it ourselves I can see a novice angler using uh Liv scope for the
1:13:52
first time being confused because they're they're they're trying to read stuff that's not there
1:14:00
yeah I I can tell you today with with our setup the guessing is pretty much out of
1:14:05
it you know it's either there or it's not and most cases it's not and therefore what it's done for us is it's
1:14:14
given us the the strength in believing we have to move yes this has got all the
1:14:21
right stuff here this the the habitat is perfect it should be loaded with fish so
1:14:27
so if they're not here right now we don't need to be here either that's what is done for us whereas before as you
1:14:33
know St I mean you can pick out the stuff that that should be holding fish you'll spend days on it yeah we don't do
1:14:40
that anymore so so we spend a lot less time actually angling and more time
1:14:47
fishing in in the trest sense of the word fishing we're fishing for for areas
1:14:52
that has fish and so consequently what it's done for us it's reinforced our our
1:14:58
belief that fish aren't everywhere you know you mentioned trollers earlier on
1:15:04
the belief in trolling it's always been that just get that thing in gear put your ba out and just cover water cuz
1:15:11
there's fish out there we'll get them we don't do that right we don't fish unless
1:15:16
there's fish there call that good bad or ugly I don't know but it's changed the
1:15:21
way we we spend our time on the water we SP we spend more time on the water than we ever did before but less time angling
1:15:29
if that makes sense at all yeah which I wonder if guys they starting to see some uptick in business where it's people
1:15:35
that I don't want to fish I just want you to show me how to use this technology you know we don't have to go
1:15:41
to your your Lake we don't have to go you don't have to show me your honey holes show me you know help me become
1:15:46
proficient with this I'm sure there there's a lot of folks doing that we have a very close friend of ours who who
1:15:52
is uh a long time novice angler like a long time he's been angling all his life
1:15:59
as a novice right very uh day-to-day business keeps him away from water far
1:16:06
too much but anyways he's intrigued by this technology and he's loaded his boat
1:16:11
up with everything that you could possibly buy but there isn't much more
1:16:16
than a week that doesn't go by that he doesn't call me and says okay all right okay all right I think I know who you're
1:16:22
ding about now you know who I'm ding all right this weekend next week next month
1:16:28
you guys need to come up to my place for a couple of days and you need to show me
1:16:33
what I'm doing wrong so you know we we at first we did that a few times more than a few times we'd go in and say okay
1:16:39
so there's what you're looking for so there's you got it yeah yeah I got it so
1:16:45
now two three weeks go by he's not under water maybe a month goes by he's not under water he goes goes back under
1:16:51
water he turns everything on he expects it to be right where we left it you know what I mean and he gets frustrated with
1:16:57
it because he's saying how come how come when you guys are here we we see Fish all over the place and I can't make it
1:17:03
work so there is that you have to spend time at it that's the only way you're
1:17:09
going to learn this stuff is to spend time the more time you spend the more time the more you're going to learn
1:17:15
there's no simple there's no fast-tracking it yet yep no it may come
1:17:20
at some point ah yeah how I wonder come they might perfect it
1:17:26
so I'm sure they will at some point they'll perfect it where you can eliminate a lot of the guesswork that we
1:17:32
had to go through now we can look at the screen say yeah there's nothing there whereas you might you or anybody else
1:17:38
might look at that screen oh okay there's a was that is that and that's
1:17:43
the difference the time will will so nothing's changed like anything else like a new lurs how to use you know top
1:17:50
water baits how to how to you know tie a a knot that'll work effectively with
1:17:56
your monofilament and your braided line like everything takes time and fishing is no different thank God thank God it's
1:18:02
no different so I'll tell you the toughest sit situation for everybody listening and Stephen Angel agreed with
1:18:09
me on this one is the toughest scenario still to this day and you can get good at it but you really got to learn your
1:18:15
screens is fishing in Weeds you're fishing in Weeds you can run lives scope in Weeds your screen is nuts it is just
1:18:23
looks like a forest it looks like it looks like you're down in the rainforest of Brazil it's just nuts but if you just
1:18:28
keep your eyes open all of a sudden there's a little detail here a little detail there you see it all of a sudden hey wait a minute there's something you
1:18:34
know what I mean so but that's the that's the tough scenar how many fish has that caught us how many fish has that oh my God it's caught us a lot of
1:18:41
fish by I got to give that a try oh it's it's it's incredible then and it's I'll
1:18:46
give you the I'll give you a prime example is looking for perch looking for perch will give you walleye a pike and
1:18:53
bass and everything else when you see these little Blobs of perch or minnows whatever all of a sudden in a weed bed
1:18:58
you're going along there's 30t of nothing 50 ft of nothing then all of a sudden boom there's a ball perch you better be casting in that area because
1:19:04
you're going to get you're probably going to catch a fist so but but you got to learn how to see that stuff right so and there's some fine tuning involved to
1:19:11
oh my God which unfortunately there is no real Playbook on because every
1:19:16
condition calls for a different setting almost I would think you know u i I'm
1:19:22
even of the belief that water temperature and the density of the water makes a difference in the signal so you
1:19:27
got to make those fine little adjustments as you go along but but those are things that you can only learn
1:19:33
by being out there oh by far yeah without a doubt you have to be on the water watching those screens for sure
1:19:40
speaking of time I'm two minutes late for a meeting with one of my students so got buddy thank you very much appreciate
1:19:45
it that was excellent Stephen excellent great work where can folks uh get connected with this this paper can they
1:19:51
read it somewhere can they find out more we'll Splash it about on the fishing C website I'll check and see it it should
1:19:57
be out and online any day uh if it's not out there already so so folks want to
1:20:03
pay attention to uh the Facebook site and uh we'll make sure that it's up in a
1:20:08
for in a form where everybody can access it you don't have to sell a kidney to get access to read it awesome thank you
1:20:15
Stephen you take care ciao uh Dr Steven cook fish talk with the doc here on
1:20:21
Outdoor Journal going to be adding a Liv scope unit to one of their boats 107 we got one down we'll get six more I'm
1:20:27
surprised I am surprised that he they don't have one on there already I really I think it's going to be a world of
1:20:34
technology difference for them I think especially I'm I didn't ask him but I'm going to make an assumption that his
1:20:40
students are just that they're young students right I think so they're they're probably more in tune with this
1:20:45
stuff than than uh than the doc yeah I wonder you think they talk about it though they say got we got enough money
1:20:51
for our lives go you know most people say buy it buy you know what I mean some people might saying no we got to learn how to use it know all those other good
1:20:58
points though you know theft and damage and and time and all that stuff so yep
1:21:03
for sure it's interesting that they're now actually spending the time to study it
1:21:09
and uh I yeah it's it was inevitable right and and like I asked him that question side finding did not do this to
1:21:15
them uh 360 did not do this to them nothing in that stuff did this all of a sudden boom now this for facing and yet
1:21:21
I'm surprised cuz you know when we first started looking at H side sonar side
1:21:27
finding sonar especially in some Fisheries uh I know the first time I saw it and and was like Wow blowing away
1:21:34
maybe you were there with me was out on the Fraser River uh sturgeon fish Vic that's right with Vic and he was using
1:21:40
it for fish he wasn't using it for anything else no it was everybody as effective as their forward facing soner
1:21:48
AB more effective because you you'd have to you'd have to have been on perspective mode which wasn't even
1:21:55
the first one round was for you you would have missed 90% of those fish that he saw remember those images on the God
1:22:02
right there you go over he park the boat right ahead up current of them okay boys drop down on that one so yeah and that's
1:22:09
what stepen see I didn't want to say anything to Stephen but because he took uh he took Side Imaging to the the most
1:22:15
basics of levels is that you're looking for structure you're looking for rocks you're looking for a weed bed etc etc
1:22:21
but you certainly can see Fish on Side Imaging there's even sure smaller not sturgeon but walleye for instance bass
1:22:27
you can see them very you got to know what you're looking for you can see you can see crappies we've seen so many schools of crappies on on Side Imaging
1:22:33
so it wasn't u i mean it didn't Rock the fishing world like like this has I'm
1:22:39
surprised really cuz it's still to this day side viewing is so cool to to do it it's so it's so effective and so neat
1:22:45
and covering so much water Anytime You Can Have Eyes under the surface it's cool I don't care what anybody says
1:22:51
anytime you can actually see what what you're what you're looking for um with
1:22:57
images it's fantastic and speaking of seeing speaking of seeing you see what I'm seeing right here oh hello I like
1:23:04
what I'm saying talk about technology uh right now up until Christmas is am I
1:23:10
right Dane is this contest that's right uh it's JB cyc and Marine are giving away a Mercury J and B come on what did
1:23:18
I say JB well okay it's a short form you put a little hyphen in there and it's just JB
1:23:25
probably the B and that would not agree with that right the J would be okay but anyway J and B J and B it's and B thank
1:23:36
you uh cycle and Marine are giving away a Mercury
1:23:42
9.9 give me a hell yeah see we just say 99 giving away 99 nothing wrong with that that's right but no for you it's a
1:23:50
Mercury 9.9 outboard motor not just a motor
1:23:55
if it was an inboard motor it you wouldn't be very much power there with uh you can win a fourstroke 9.9 Mercury
1:24:00
horsepower motor um by going to where and by the way um yeah that is on on uh
1:24:09
no it's not on fishing canada.com yeah it's on fishion canada.com hell yeah it's there too it's everywhere CU I saw
1:24:14
it I saw it some I saw it someplace on the screen recently must have been on F
1:24:20
watching your Liv scope you had it all we never even talked about that about what when is somebody going to
1:24:27
come out with the paper saying that looking at those screens on a boat all day long is actually harmful it's bad
1:24:35
for your posture for sure bad for your posture it actually hurts my neck guar
1:24:40
when I ice fish just being hunched up all day that's why well very quick that's why we went to the fishfindermounts.com guys and they gave
1:24:46
us a nice higher Mount so and and I now with me I'm looking face face onto it it's like hello there everybody talking
1:24:52
about getting in your obstruct view when I'm standing up I'm looking under it when we're driving the boat I don't know
1:24:57
how we got on to that because this is all about J&B Cy Marin correct by the way I don't know whether you know this
1:25:03
or not but they are Ontario's largest Mercury Princecraft dealership I aware of that I am aware of that how do you
1:25:10
determine that by numbers dollars I I have to ask got to be dollars it has to be well no maybe the order number right
1:25:16
I mean I've ordered to 500 Mercury Motors this year and then 300 Princecraft boats this year maybe I
1:25:22
don't know and they're also the f folks who who you can lease a boat for the summer Cottage right like a pontoon boat
1:25:30
for the cottage great idea um fantastic check them out I'll tell you what they are on The Cutting Edge these people see
1:25:36
and and you give me hell here but right here I'm reading on the thing their site is JB cycle.com you can't put the little
1:25:44
an symbol in a can't do an a ers and an well see okay so I'm taking it to the
1:25:50
next level oh you're doing the web version of it I'm doing the URL talking URLs everybody from now on
1:25:58
that's you are not URL yes you are anyways check them out if you're in the market for boat motor trailer anything
1:26:04
outdoors as far as Marine is concerned uh JB cycle are your people we do have a
1:26:10
bonus code from them there as well will get you 10 entries into the contest this particular contest y well
1:26:18
look at that actually it'll get you entries on all of them cuz I think there's a garment up there right now too well here you go for those of you who've
1:26:25
been patiently waiting for this week's code get your crayon out it's sonar s o
1:26:33
n a r uh it's in Upper caps here so you might want to do that all capitals there
1:26:39
you go uh just type that into the bonus code section of the contest and you'll receive as Dean just told us not one but
1:26:48
10 extra bonus entries give me a hell yeah yeah that's where the hell you
1:26:54
that are it wow that's exciting episode today man that was good I like that Stephen's a great guest too right I'd
1:27:01
have him on every day if I could I think you know what we got to do you and I have to quit we have to let him take
1:27:07
over that's probably what well it wasn't quite what I was thinking but I was thinking we should go up and visit
1:27:13
Steven and teach them uh what we know about our life scoping and all that a day on you know in the water and say
1:27:18
okay guys and girls let's uh you know what get together Dean make a note of that and we have to go fishing just go
1:27:25
scoping and showing and off that service to Dr Cook would you yeah that'd be cool we'd love to spend some time with his
1:27:31
students and H be a good little segment in the fishing Canada show there you go you know what I'm saying doesn't get any
1:27:38
better than doesn't get any better than that there you go on that note folks uh we will uh let you go uh I want to thank
1:27:44
you for joining us once again by the way you know I don't say this very often but uh if you could if you like this episode
1:27:51
is if you like what we do maybe you could subscribe or give us a like or do something uh yeah we don't say that much
1:27:57
do we no we everybody always says that hey remember to like subcribe thumbs up blah blah blah I saw a stat today 60 or
1:28:04
70% of the people who watch us on YouTube aren't subscribed are not are not so most
1:28:11
people who are watching right now are not subscribed to wow say up to 70% wonder why wonder what the
1:28:18
deal is they just found this one video sort of thing I'm bad for that actually of watching things and not subscribing
1:28:23
unfortunately me too but that's because I forget or somebody's not telling me how about do we change that right now
1:28:29
for that 60% of you please who are out there right now watching this and have enjoyed it
1:28:36
because if you didn't enjoy it chances are you're not watching it so I'm I'm definitely not going to subscribe I'm speaking to the choir here I'm preaching
1:28:43
so for those of you 60 centers who have not subscribed yet let's see if we can move that needle today let's just I know
1:28:51
I know it's a little bit of effort but let's see if we can move that meal uh subscribe give us a like push a button
1:28:58
of some kind before you tune out all right come on now on behalf of the
1:29:05
entire Outdoor Journal team uh baa over there who's waiting for us to get off
1:29:10
lunch uh Nick is at school today no way yeah and Dean are ous producer uh he's
1:29:19
Peter Bowman I'm Angel thanks for joining us
1:29:24
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
1:29:39
[Applause] this episode of Outdoor Journal radio has been brought to you in part by the
1:29:46
invasive species Center protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species Freedom Cruise Canada rent the
1:29:54
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Adventures

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A Scientist's Take on LiveScope | Outdoor Journal Radio ep.146

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