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The Brains Behind Barotrauma | Outdoor Journal Radio ep. 105
9K views
Dec 2, 2024
This week on Outdoor Journal Radio, Ang and Pete are joined by Carleton University's Dr. Steven Cooke to get a scientist's perspective on the barotrauma controversy and to discuss the sudden distrust of fish science. First, however, a bit of housekeeping was in order. Topics discussed included: the danger of fishing in deep water; why Ang and Pete are not scientists; Ginos; why ice fishing content is hard to put on television; 40-foot wells; using drones to recover game; and underrated fish species. With those matters out of the way, Dr. Cooke joins the show! Topics discussed included: the role of anglers in fish science; the importance of context; Dr. Cooke's take on the now-famous crappie study; why barbs don't matter; jumping the scientific gun; whether catch and release through the ice is worth it; Forward Facing Sonar's role in science; the saviour of fishkind; Aaron's release method; whether or not fizzing is effective; and much more! To never miss an episode of Outdoor Journal Radio, be sure to like, subscribe, and leave a review on your favourite podcast app! More from Angelo and Pete: ► WEBSITE ► FACEBOOK ► INSTAGRAM ► YOUTUBE Thank you to today's sponsors! Invasive Species Centre - Protecting Canada's land and water from invasive species Coleman Canada - The Outside is Calling, Answer the Call. CANADIAN ANGLERS: Outdoor Journal Radio and the Invasive Species Centre are looking for your help in getting information about our invasive Goldfish population. Fill out the quick survey to help us keep our waters safe from invasive species!
View Video Transcript
0:00
[Music] and now another exciting episode in The Adventures of Outdoor Journal
0:06
radio well hello everybody thank you for joining us once again Outdoor Journal radio the podcast I'm Angela B he is
0:13
Peter Bowman as usual vaa Nick and Dean and the other parts of the room that we
0:18
can't show you come on now apparently yeah I wonder why we can't show we have once we have once and then we got such
0:24
bad reviews on they cut away to Dean and they they were kind of a feared of them
0:30
he's like a nasty he's going to beat me up that guy welcome to the program What
0:35
a Wonder What A Wonderful episode we have coming for you uh recently it's the
0:43
internet has been a buzz about uh about that's good ab Buzz that's yeah clever
0:51
very clever about this whole issue of be trauma and how deep is you know too deep
0:57
to be fishing for fish and should we just stop fishing deep fish altogether
1:02
if we know for a fact the be trauma is caused by bringing fish in say and let's
1:07
just for argument sake because there is no real set number at this point we have speculations on what it should be but
1:14
let's just say it's 30 ft for the sake of AR if they say that fish are brought in from deeper than 30 ft the mortality
1:21
rate is just not acceptable you know and and to me mortality rate at that point it could be
1:28
1% that's still probably not acceptable because it means that we as Anglers are going to
1:33
knowingly knowingly try and catch a fish that has a chance of dying which that in
1:41
itself it don't make much sense it don't make much sense if we're into Catch and Release now if we're if we're fishing
1:47
for a feed of walleye for example for a Shore lunch and the only place we can
1:53
get them is 30 ft but you're going to consume those five or six fish then have
1:58
at it yeah but again see that one right there we could catch a 11 pounder
2:04
accidentally and then all uh and you say why you know so and you say why would I
2:11
want to do that if I know it could die new listeners anybody that's new to this or doesn't know a whole lot about bar
2:16
trauma just look it up quickly before you you know before you listen to this or put it on pause and look up bar trauma and you'll see in fish you'll see
2:22
what we're going to be talking about today so a noted expert will be joining us later on uh you may know him from
2:27
previous Outdoor Journal episode he was certainly on our radio show for a number of years we may have done television
2:34
work with him his name is Dr Steven J cook he'll be joining us a little bit later on if you want want an idea of his
2:41
credentials uh because the whole scientific Community right now is being
2:48
questioned as to their validity when it comes to doing uh research and whatnot uh if there's any question about Dr
2:55
Cook's credentials he's a biology professor at the at Carlton University
3:00
uh he's published more than 700 peerreview papers now peer review
3:07
paper peer-reviewed paper is when these guys do a study that study could be a
3:12
month long could be a year long they might do seven studies in conjunction with one but the bottom line is when
3:19
that study is done and finished and they have written up their conclusion it needs to go to a bank of scientists that
3:26
then have a chance to review it and say Stephen I don't know man cross cross
3:33
that out I don't like that and um it's like me script writing you got to go to go to after that it's
3:40
like it's always it's changed 100% by the time the audience gets right so P review work means that it has gone
3:49
under scrutiny beyond belief when it is
3:54
finally put out there it's the real deal I could not do that I could not if Peter
4:01
and I decided to do a study on the mortality rate of the American eel when
4:08
we capture it in New Brunswick uh uh in the spring of the year and we decided
4:15
because we went out and fish for a day that okay all right everybody listen
4:20
up listen up we have decided that uh here's the truth now
4:27
forget the studies forget the science forget all that bunch of [ __ ] of [ __ ] bunch
4:33
of [ __ ] right forget all that we now are the Messiah we are the word man you
4:39
got to listen up because we went out and fish today and we learned more in that short period of time than all the
4:45
scientists in the world know and so here's the truth about we're pretty smart American eels oh we we're Geniuses
4:53
yep so this the program is going to be a lot about that today uh because recently
4:58
on the internet uh YouTubers uh um folks have are
5:05
starting to come out and question the science that goes behind fish and wildlife management and man we cannot
5:12
afford uh for this to happen without getting the scientists involved in discussion and that's what we're doing
5:17
today we have one of the greatest scientists of our time uh in the Fisheries business to talk to us about
5:24
that so you don't want to miss it for sure good stuff all right uh moving on
5:29
what do we got today Mr Bowman well we got of course the new fish and Canada season is going around strong right now
5:35
so uh we know or two about that we know a thing or two about that but we always you know we always take recommendations
5:41
and and criticism right we can take some constructive criticism every now and then that's a bunch of [ __ ] don't do
5:46
that anymore a bunch of [ __ ] does he get paid like not to push the button anymore well he does a lot of writing I
5:52
see I get to see him you're not I got a good angle on he takes notes so that he's taking notes so he's no maybe he's
5:59
not taking notes maybe he's farting around and doing nothing double dipping or what is I thought is he not getting paid for for this part of the job or
6:06
taking notes on the show if I'm the editor as well right I don't
6:11
just sit here oh I didn't know that yeah holy Ma look at you look at him going did you ever think
6:18
that one day did you ever think that one day seriously think back now to your
6:24
first exposure to the fishing Canada brand you were about a I'm sure a
6:29
toddler at best yes for sure I remember it you remember it y okay did you ever
6:35
think in your wildest dreams that you would be sitting here one day here we go right here right now communicating with
6:42
us while we're doing our thing my mom did your mom predicted it and she just
6:47
kept putting in his head so it's kind of not the biggest surprise in his life you know God bless your mom I love you
6:57
Mom hey where where fish Canada show shop. fishing canada.com quickly just if you want any
7:04
merch like uh my fishing Canada quarter zip and orang by the way you look very handsome and I don't know I look how do
7:10
I look G I look very Gino I walked in today well it's like Curly chest hair
7:16
down maybe a little further I don't know if I did but no shirt underneath the CH and Nick says hey you look very Geno
7:21
today now you see we're not that sounds in itself that's so
7:28
80s make that comment yeah like it's not even acceptable today I mean is it I
7:34
don't know if you're Italian it's good isn't it well no you can say if you're Italian can you Nick's Italian n see I
7:42
have problems with that too but and don't get me started with that I don't believe I believe ethnic
7:49
slurs if is that is that a slur well sure it is sure it is sure it is may be
7:54
a good thing no I think ethnic slurs I took it as I was a very handsome a man a
8:00
man of if they are polit Politically Incorrect I think
8:05
that should go right across the board I agree with that I don't think 100% I don't think that because for example I
8:12
don't think because I'm Italian that I can use ethnic slurs well maybe I do I
8:20
was going to say I see I kind of I kind of no but I kind of enjoy it you know
8:25
what I mean I I I I kind of like it I kind of like it I like I like full do we
8:30
ever see that Nick as soon as he came in this morning you just started a whole new bunch of [ __ ] that's for
8:36
sure uh we should do a podcast about that I think about that yeah I'll line someone up an expert so anyway you think
8:44
you expert he he thinks you look like a Gino in there he just said very genino so so yeah I'm assuming it's the the
8:52
open shirt no no shirt underneath and little bit of chest hair coming out there a little gray chest hair coming
8:58
out there all right all right Gino what's next on the on the thing here ah
9:03
what do we say grai grai that's we were talking about uh if you go to fishing cat by the way you see
9:10
that free shipping it's on all orders over 100 bucks that's it's all orders
9:16
new old sale not sale if your total order is over 100 bucks the good Folks
9:22
at fishing canada.com the shop the store uh will pay for your shipping for you
9:28
very nice it's very nice of and no better time to go there than right now there's some goodies going on let me
9:33
tell you I don't want to spoil it for you so you you you go check it out it's at fishing canada.com while you're there
9:40
uh you might want to stop in and uh have a look at what's new in uh do we have a
9:46
new today by the way uh well we got a listener feedback first there you go and then we could go to after that so we
9:52
have a from Facebook uh Kevin Fox sends in something here in response to the new season of the fishing Canada television
9:58
show he says show ice fishing content it's winter you guys are always
10:04
backwards in the summer you're showing ice content we are well no we're not
10:11
that part of that part of it backwards for sure we're always showing Open Water Kevin when have we done that I want to
10:18
know if you've got like is that considered ice fish that's there's no ice no we in in summer you're showing
10:25
ice content so that's that is incorrect he is right you guys are always were fishing the Open Water right you know
10:32
for the whole entire season right but it's because when was the last time we even aired producer nice fishing show
10:40
does anybody know that's a long time that was definitely the Reno era for
10:45
sure oh you know without question so that's pre 206 and it was a while before
10:51
he retired so so I'm going to say the mid90s we aired a ice fishing show that
10:57
was the last time we did one I'm look it up after this I we should explain why that happens though because I I don't think people understand our broadcast
11:03
schedule and why yeah well okay so so we produce our shows now they're going to say well change your your broadcast or
11:11
your uh your production season we shoot our shows for the most part from
11:19
May to all the way into late fall Sometimes some Seasons we'll run into
11:25
some problems so we're shooting in November because our programs have to be
11:31
packaged and they have to be delivered to the station so they can air that
11:36
following January right which when you really look at it on the big picture not a whole lot
11:42
of time for us to get to do what we do so we are done by the time our season
11:48
starts in January all of our field work is done and certainly um in some years
11:55
we could have done a a ice fishing show in October November back in the good old days when it used to get cold yeah when
12:02
it used to freeze back then or I guess we could go to Manitoba and go on the
12:07
Winnipeg River and go after some of those green backs through the ice I guess that's a possibility that' be yeah
12:14
yeah yeah you could maybe we could go to Quebec and shoot some ice fishing stuff and and get away with that but here's
12:20
the problem once we air the episodes for the first time through the run then they
12:27
repeat themselves four more times throughout the course of the 12mon annual uh broadcast cycle yeah and
12:35
we just found a long time ago we have been doing this for a year or two we found out a long time ago that when ice
12:42
fishing shows showed up in June July and August and September which is always backwards
12:48
k sakes we're backwards there uh the audience numbers went down as soon as they saw it was ice fishing they would
12:55
turn to another channel so we said hey I think this might be a
13:00
pattern let's not do ice fishing shows anymore and therefore this will not
13:06
happen again and then we for the next 35 years that's what we did and here we are
13:11
today now for the first time that I can remember somebody is asking us why so
13:17
there's why a number one it doesn't fit into our production cycle and then
13:22
number two it doesn't really work with our broadcast cycle because most folks don't want to watch somebody ice fishing
13:28
in June and July and August done good answer good answer sure
13:34
well let me know I'd like to know if Kevin what he says in the summer you show ice content I'm not sure I think he might be referring to our contest maybe
13:41
sometimes we'll give away like a live scope ice bundle but we're not doing an ice article in say in response to the
13:47
new season of fishing Canada show is what it says yeah he he commented that he he's actually been commenting a lot
13:52
on all of our stuff he's a good fan but okay well we love you we love you Kevin Fox don't get us wrong we're just
13:59
try to explain it that's all hopefully that explained it I think that's Now Kevin reached out to us via Facebook yep
14:05
is that normal is that where they normally get a hold of us a lot of people do yeah yeah yep so if you want to question and there is no question
14:12
there is no wrong question there might be wrong answers now and then but there's certainly no wrong question uh
14:19
please uh feel free to contact us at info fishing canada.com and then our uh our good
14:27
folks in the research department they we'll pull that out and put it in Dean's drum and then Dean reaches in before
14:33
every podcast and pulls these things out and here we go there's a bunch of [ __ ] you're not supposed to be doing
14:39
that at the wrong time he does it perfectly sometimes doesn't he just not right or wrong it's just perfect I like
14:46
it uh drop the bomb thank you Kevin we we appreciate you when you go to fishing
14:51
canada.com by the way whether it's to buy some new garments some some wonderful apparel or whether it's to
14:56
find out uh uh more about the show you can even view the shows by the way on or
15:02
enter a contest or enter a contest which is ongoing it is a one of the largest
15:08
contests for the outdoor industry in existence anywhere oh really cool I believe that both in terms of quantity
15:15
and quality I believe that big there always something going on if you're not in it you're never going to win it so uh
15:22
judge yourself according uh but when you do go there you'll also see that we're highlighting for example things like
15:28
this this this week I'm I believe uh the uh podcast Network a lot of folks may still
15:35
not realize that this is a network it's not just the show right and some of the other uh programs on there are featured
15:43
from time to time and this week episode 26 of Diaries of a lodge owner wow he's
15:50
at 26 already already it's gone crazy isn't it wow amazing uh it's a very
15:56
interesting one it might not sound so but you catch this episode and you'll say wow especially if you own a cottage
16:04
or a rural property somewhere where this might apply directly to you it's water
16:10
and septic those sounds like the simple things that we take for granted but you do as a house owner really sure you do
16:16
in a city where did it come from I don't know it just shows up I open the top and boom there it is and how do you get rid
16:22
of it well I don't know I just go in there porcelain there dump it and flush it and off it goes I don't know where it
16:28
goes well you know if you live in rural parts of the world that becomes a very important daily uh issue and this uh
16:37
episode 26 what's the title oh it's water and septic I it's fascinating you you
16:43
definitely want to talked to talked to a cottage owner recently and they had to dig 400 feet to get the well 400 ft to
16:53
get and he's on the water it's a cottage on the water you know what I mean it makes it what 400 ft like how do you
17:01
have how much money did that cost God but how do you have the fortitude to
17:07
keep to keep going to say to the the owner standing up there he's watching all this going on and and you know any
17:14
water yet no how deep are you 232 ft how do you have like to keep going $200 $400
17:23
$600 yeah you're right CU because I I brought that up to a guy I talked to a
17:28
well driller on the weekend and he said that's a deep well he says that it's exactly what he said when you get to
17:35
that point you just wonder maybe we should be stopping and figure something else out we got to move we got to try some place pump it from the lake and
17:41
have a purifying system or something how do you know no they may know maybe they had one of those you know those little watering twis whatever but even that
17:48
like 400 not much twitching going on there think holy man you're going to hit
17:54
the center of the earth it's going to be hot water any anyway you want to check that
18:00
episode Diaries of Lodge owner um on Spotify on on any place where you
18:06
consume your audio entertainment uh or on our site on fishing canada.com it's
18:12
there as well um definitely good listening and you want to hear that in the news Mr Bowman should drones be
18:19
allowed for game recovery wow that's a great title because as of October 31st 23 45 out of the 50 US states have laws
18:28
that restrict the use of drones in hunting and uh it goes on you're thinking okay you shouldn't be using
18:35
drones just to go out and and find animals and kill them or whatever right but it's not just that it's that they're
18:40
stopping the drones from recovering shot animals and and you know what I can already think of why I'll tell you why
18:48
because they want to eliminate the possibility of somebody using that as an excuse right right because which is
18:54
unfortunate because unfortunate because because recovering an animal would be I would think would be should number one
19:01
at the top if you shot that animal you need to recover that animal you need to do everything it takes to get that
19:06
animal back so a drone to me is a perfect example of that thing has especially if it has heat sensors in it
19:12
which some of them do nowadays infrared or whatever it would see that body of that animal like oh my God is there way over there in that brush let's go get it
19:19
somebody ruined it for everybody else some goon yep absolutely right and and use the excuse oh yeah yeah there's I'm
19:26
recovering an animal when did you shoot it oh last Saturday you know because really how you
19:32
how are you going to verify whether in fact the Drone is out there recovering an animal or not M no you're right
19:39
you're absolutely right it's an interesting news story you need to to and you know it might apply to fishing
19:45
someday well it does here in Ontario am I right it already you can't you can't use drones to to locate fish to help you
19:52
locate and catch like not just hang a hook off and a line off your drone you can't use it to go from what I can tell
19:58
you can't go okay they're right there cast there cast there cast there I don't think you can do that no you can't no in
20:03
the province of Ontario is a total ban on using drones we uh we showed that in our in one of our shows this year in the
20:09
in the Sportsman's the cler kery bay where you could see us see we us went
20:14
after the fact we said oh my God we didn't realize that over there there was two giants that were sitting over there
20:19
you dummies so right behind you there little screenshot there it is right there it's right right beside us pretty
20:25
much so that screenshot shows it now we might have if that fish was moving this way we might have seen that one cuz you
20:30
can see how e it is that's a giant yeah that's a big old pipe right there yeah for sure but if they were way over here
20:36
or something like that you know what I mean so I have to ask the question how is it different than
20:46
sonar how is it different than an electric motor for that matter right no
20:54
absolutely absolutely can we get somebody on the program at some point cuz I think this warrant's uh bringing
21:01
an official on to discuss this because there's got to be some thinking that we're missing right now because I as
21:06
long as I'm not deploying bait or a hook and line off of the Drone which would be
21:13
stupid because the Drone would get all caught up in it eventually and you'd probably they they just done in salt
21:18
water yeah take it and then they drop it and then then it's on a reel after that right so see I think with this stuff
21:24
they're just scared of the loopholes like people spying on properties and flying over property and doing stupid
21:29
stuff but we're talking out in the water I know but like if you're over Cottages or I think with drones it's always they
21:35
just air on the side of caution well you're not going they can do that anyways can't they if a guy has a drone license and is not an air Air Zone they
21:41
could do that anyways I think more likely they could do that than if they're looking for fish because you're never going to find a fish in a cottage
21:48
sink or anything you got to go offshore you're not going to find it through Shia Twain's bedroom window you know what I
21:54
mean so well no well no in all fairness there was that one time okay in all fairness the cottage was
22:02
there I love it and we were fishing right there what could I do right and the sun was at an angle where
22:09
we could get a better view I said and there's a fish over there he said
22:14
where uh anyways I I think it make for a great program so see getting somebody on
22:19
that knows that would be great for hunting and fishing for sure but in the meantime you might want to go to fishing can.com read the story because it covers
22:27
50 of the states that have banned it Ontario has banned it I'm not sure about
22:32
the rest of the country here but uh it's an interesting discussion that's worth having at this point because there's
22:38
more and more drones than we care to count at this probably a lot yeah I bet
22:43
there's a lot out there fan question of the week before we get to our uh
22:49
exciting scientific part of the show that I'm dying to get yes sir Mr Cook Dr Cook on anyways fan question submitted
22:56
by Rick langson from Manitoba we were just talking about Manitoba that's correct so green backs your own green
23:03
backs a walleye they call them green backs out of the Winnipeg River cuz they literally have a green back they're such
23:10
a cool looking Emerald GRE first time I saw one I I kept hearing about this green bag green bag and all of a sudden I saw him I oh my God that thing has a
23:17
green bag Wonder wonderful fish there a cool looking fish Rick will know about those Rick langson anyways he sends us
23:23
via email uh this week's fan question and it is this what species do you like
23:29
or do you think is underrated in Canada so I'm assuming first of all we're
23:35
talking about sport fishing obviously what species do you think is underrated
23:40
in Canada is this question Mr Bowman well see I took his I'm going to take
23:45
his question more generic than the sport fish I'm going to add a fish that is not really a sheep head a freshwater drum to
23:54
me is one of the strongest fish out there you can catch it on a variety of methods
24:01
especially casting crankbaits Spinners stuff like that and they are so much fun
24:07
to catch and they are gigantic at times when you catch a 20 lb sheepy on a little crankbait and you know like if
24:13
you're we got a Liv scope area we're going to try this year I don't know if you want to come along you might want to come along it's going to be fun they
24:19
School up and you throw crankbaits cast crankbaits to them and start catch them where off where can you get a fish that
24:24
fights like that and schools up like that as aggressive like that and to catch and release fishery that's what I
24:30
was going to say you know and as we get more and more um into Catch and Release
24:35
more folks are into Catch and Release so in other words they're just going over for the sport then what why would why not it has it has like incredible
24:44
availability uh they get big they're strong they're so strong ridiculous from
24:50
what we know they're they're in most freshwater lakes um so yeah that would
24:55
be a good one my mine is probably not far from that in terms of weird fish or different fish and that's the
25:01
garpike I think it's way underrated way too underrated in view of the fact that
25:06
it's available in pretty much every wed that dumps into Lake Ontario um
25:13
so we we have no idea how widely they're distributed but I can pretty much tell
25:20
you they're everywhere you just have to go look for them and look for the literally look for them look for them
25:25
and and and uh you know look for habitat that habitat is available everywhere and
25:31
I dare say they they are everywhere and I got to tell you they are the most exciting fish they're fun that's the
25:37
best probably your probably the most fun sight fishing you're going to have in fresh water right there and the hookup
25:42
rate is like 20 horrible 25% baby 25 you must be good [ __ ] I got about 3% the
25:49
ones I caught like I could not keep one hooked they're a blast they're Abol blast so so fight like crazy sheep head
25:57
that big one you had a 5-footer went right through the what the oh my God
26:03
it's insane so yeah there's there's the two underrated and they're underrated because people don't even know about
26:08
them there's nothing really that's talked nobody's doing anything with them yeah and I if I was a guide those would
26:15
be two fish that I would I would specialize in Jamie pelli does onar exactly right he makes a lot of money on
26:22
that fish yeah I I would specialize in them because they're plenty
26:28
um hardy hardy you're oh y they're fantastic so there you go that's the uh
26:36
fan question of the week from Rick langson from no yeah yeah Rick langson
26:42
from Manitoba uh which the other one would be another one which is very rare and I wouldn't probably say it's
26:48
underrated no I'll take that one come on come on don't talk to me let me see let me give it a one out of 10 it's too
26:53
exotic and and that would not be an underrated fish Char just too exotic I'm
26:59
thinking now I'm trying to think uh I I was thinking the in Cano she fish wow she fish only because how rare it is how
27:06
how how remote it is but I heard they're real sissies though they can't take you
27:11
they can't take the heat yeah they're like a gring right they just they're just they beat up real easy
27:17
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loose there's an adventure just outside these walls it's something you'll hate to leave and can't wait to get back to
28:42
it's a place where memories are made and bonds are forged for some it's hitting the trails for others it's a weekend at
28:49
the lake it's a place full of campfires and quality time this year takes some time to reconnect with friends family
28:56
and nature no matter what Adventures await you Coleman has the gear you need
29:01
visit Coleman canada.ca to gear up today the outside is calling answer the
29:14
call as the world gets louder and louder the lessons of our natural world become
29:19
harder and harder to hear but they are still available to those who know where to
29:26
listen I'm Jerry olette and I was honored to serve as Ontario's minister of Natural
29:32
Resources however my journey into the woods didn't come from politics rather it came from my time in
29:39
the bush and a mushroom in 2015 I was introduced to the
29:46
Birch hungry fungus known as chaga a tree Kong with centuries of medicinal use by indigenous peoples all over the
29:53
globe after nearly a decade of harvest use testimonials and research my
29:59
skepticism has faded to Obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving
30:04
the lives of others through natural means but that's not what the show is about my pursuit of the strange mushroom
30:12
and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural
30:18
world on Outdoor Journal radio's Under The Canopy podcast I'm going to take you
30:23
along with me to see the places and meet the people that will help you find your outdoor
30:29
passion and help you live a life close to Nature and Under The Canopy find
30:35
Under The Canopy now on Spotify Apple podcasts or wherever else you get your
30:42
podcasts all right now for the uh scientific part of the program Mr Bowman enough with your rhetoric enough of our
30:50
uh like your T-shirt says right there that's about a you know a bunch of that tells it all exactly so so as I
30:57
mentioned at top of the program uh joining us now our good friend our in-house scientist Dr Steven Cook he is
31:05
a biology professor at Carlton University among other things publishes he's published 700 peer-reviewed papers
31:11
I think that qualifies him as a professional welcome to the show Stephen
31:17
hey how are you today good uh thanks for coming on yeah great to have you buddy did I hear correctly you just came from
31:25
Africa on some work yeah I was off the coast of Africa off the east coast I was
31:30
in the SE shells uh working on Bone Fish and giant travali those are you don't like either of those right GTS we'd love
31:37
to have a GT fishing trip those things are nuts eh they're Giants what uh what were you what were you doing like what
31:44
was stud on the Bonefish side of things we were looking at Bonefish health so we were collecting some blood samples using
31:50
the SE shells as a reference point for some work that's been done in uh in the
31:55
Florida Keys and around the Caribbean so uh it's it's our belief that those say
32:01
Shelli and Bone Fish would be as pristine as one could find and then with the the GTS uh we've had a Telemetry
32:08
study going for the last three or four years so down there checking in on our Telemetry arrays uh doing some more
32:15
tagging working with uh guides at the alons fishing company and having a whole lot of fun wow did you get to catch a
32:21
giant tur valy did absolutely did you last day there last day there good man
32:27
oh God that be fun right bringing it full circle uh we asked you on the program because as of late um um on the
32:36
digital distribution side of the world there's been some uh a lot of folks jumping on bandwagons regarding the
32:44
science behind uh wildlife management and and in particular Fisheries uh there
32:50
was a video that was uh produced by uh some Minnesota Anglers along with I
32:55
think it was M&R uh in Minnesota the DNR whatever they call yeah and um they did
33:00
a their own little uh study on Barrel trauma and how it affects fish and they
33:07
use crappy uh um that were being caught in the 20t 25 ft depth range and then
33:16
through the ice through the ice and then bringing them up and and then uh putting them in a a net so that they could
33:24
monitor clipping a fin too they did a clip the fin all that Stu you know there's some questions question marks
33:32
certainly that arose from anybody that watched the uh the video but um they put them in the net to see if they would
33:38
survive or not and if they didn't uh then obviously it was be with trauma and uh we need to stop you know catching
33:45
fish out of deep water and then that went up and then immediately after that
33:50
of course the naysayers came on and said yeah well that's all a bunch of right there on my shirt uh because uh in fact
33:59
that's not true because we catch fish at 30 fet and 35 ft and and hell we release
34:04
them all and they're all good so how can so it started it's starting to get and then one of these guys um actually took
34:10
it upon himself and I don't know whether you are familiar with this one but not but he he kind of uh poo pooed the whole
34:17
scientific approach to to uh to these matters and said that really science is
34:23
not the right way to go and we need to rely more on people like him who have got uh experience out in the
34:30
field because apparently scientists don't have experience out in the field according to him so I wanted to bring
34:36
you on because I know this is right in your wheelhouse what what do you make of this
34:41
crap pretty much been a full-time job to try and keep up with this a lot going a
34:46
lot going on uh yeah uh where to start um I think I'll start with uh just sort
34:52
of uh you know that I I love this kind of conversation um applied Wildlife fishery science should
35:00
not happen in a vacuum it should not be just scientists doing science uh we need
35:06
to be delivering science that's relevant to management and that means interacting
35:11
with Anglers guides and and other professionals that are on the water so
35:16
that the work we do has meaning right and so uh I do like some of the themes
35:23
that are being discussed about how Anglers and scientists need to work together absolutely and that's something
35:30
that that we certainly try to embrace with the uh the work that we do whether it's working with tournament organizers
35:36
whether it's working with members of muskies Canada and other fishing clubs whether it's working with guides and
35:43
just you know Anglers they have a lot to share um I think it's also fair to say
35:49
that uh most Fisheries managers I know and most scientists that work on
35:54
recreational fish species are themselves Avid Anglers and I think there's this sort of assumption out there that we
36:01
want to do science to so we can create more regulations so that there can be less fishing and I think that's pretty
36:08
far from the from reality uh you know many of us got into this because we love
36:14
fishing we love the resource and we want to make sure that we will have uh fish
36:20
to catch for you know our our kids grandkids and and so on so I think just want to start with that yeah I think
36:27
it's important to you know to make a note here that that you mentioned most
36:33
uh of your peers are are into the outdoors and into fishing so so they're
36:38
doing this for more than just a job and I think the other thing to bring out here too is that we're all at the end of
36:44
the day we're all humans and and we all have different viewpoints and we all have different ways of looking and doing
36:51
things and so there is not one perfect you're right there's not one perfect solution but maybe maybe a mination of
36:57
of all and having said that having said that um
37:04
I've worked with enough scientific minded folks um sometimes sometimes they do get
37:14
stuck in the Quagmire called science right because sometimes science
37:20
and it's not perfect as you just pointed out right and and because sometimes they're so focused on the science that
37:27
they don't see the bigger picture picture the practicality or something little nuances or something yeah so we
37:33
do have to be careful with that absolutely um and and I although I do think um the scientific Community is
37:42
well intended we do have to be able to step back a little bit see yeah that that adds up two and two is definitely
37:48
four but in this case we really need to make it work out to five so if there's
37:54
any argument scientists from my op Viewpoint and
38:00
opinion they're perfect when they're working between the lines yeah but when we need to cross
38:08
those lines it gets a little bit difficult so that would be the only thing I'd have to say about that
38:13
absolutely I like to think of scientists as being so-called honest Brokers so
38:20
where we are sort of you know we're we're not all knowing and uh
38:27
our job is to talk about uncertainty um you know science is imperfect because
38:32
it's a human endeavor and we are imperfect uh we all bring baggage to the table there's biases and lived
38:39
experiences that that color the glasses that we see the world and with science
38:46
we try to put that that bias in the the background and and really try to be honest Brokers and I think that
38:53
scientists are probably the biggest critic of their own work and uh I think some of
39:00
that's been missing in this narrative too you know we saw a a a you know a
39:05
video clip and uh a website posting sort of summarizing a pilot study um I can
39:12
guarantee you if you and what didn't find its way into that was the boring
39:18
text that we write in our science papers where we talk about the limitations where we put it in context
39:25
and you know that's where we talk about uh things that were identified by by
39:32
folks as being potentially problematic for example you know the you know why
39:37
were the animals held at uh held on the surface uh for so long uh you know why
39:44
was a fin clip used relative to other methods and what does that mean in terms of interpreting those those findings and
39:52
it's that boring part of the paper usually right before the conclusion uh where a lot of scientists go we look at
39:58
the methods the results and then we head for that limitation section because the
40:04
scientists who did that work will have you know almost gone to the point of
40:09
discrediting themselves because they list everything that's wrong with a study and we need to do that because we
40:15
don't want a management agency a decision maker taking that work and
40:21
applying it inappropriately so we really focus on what is that frame of of reference so a study on ice fishing
40:29
crappy barot trauma probably shouldn't be uh extrapolated out to tell us about
40:35
Barrow trauma on red snapper off the coast of Florida for example um so it's
40:42
really talking about and understanding that frame of inference and what what
40:47
people need to know when they are thinking about using that information what is the context in which that
40:54
information was obtained where does it apply where doesn't it h i was he answer
40:59
pretty much answered my question on that one but I think the the the good part of this what we're doing right now the good part about Aaron's uh video and the good
41:06
part about the angling Buzz putting it all out is that ultimately we're all going to learn we're all talking about
41:12
Barat trauma which is dangerous to fish and we're talking about it and we could become you know through science and through Anglers we can find a solution
41:18
or better Solutions right so it's a good thing that we're bringing it up so here's what I'd like to do without putting you on the spot
41:27
and you tell us if we are I'd like you to critique the sci from a scientific
41:33
standpoint the scientific study that started this whole from from from uh the
41:40
Linder Camp um with the DNR folks I'd like you to look at that and either
41:46
critique it or say no that is bang on that's exactly what I would have done um
41:51
and and and here's why can you do that cuz I'd like to critique the other side
41:56
which is the YouTuber video guy okay so yeah let's do it both ways Perfect all
42:02
right I will start off and say that I have access to the same stuff that everybody else does which is the website
42:10
and the video so I do not have a copy of any fancy DNR reports or anything like
42:17
that so um so that makes it difficult to assess what was done because I can't see
42:25
the methods I can't see the statistics and so on what I can do is make some inferences from the video that was
42:31
shared and just what they what they they talk about um one of the critiques that was levied as I mentioned was those
42:37
animals were uh once they were caught they were held at surface and processed in various ways they were measured which
42:44
is a common fisheries management tactic we need to know if if uh for example mortality or behavioral impairments are
42:51
size specific so that can be done quickly I think the I think also say
42:56
that the fish we saw being processed I think was probably done slowly to
43:03
document and show the process usually we're you know we try to be lightning quick when handling fish at any time but
43:11
especially during a catch and release study because we want it to be as relevant to a a real fishing situation
43:19
as as possible so um the fact that the the fin was clipped that does not bother
43:25
me we clip fins all the time many hatcheries clip fins entirely they
43:31
wouldn't remove the entire coddle fin um but a top or bottom part of a coddle fin that's not going to impact uh Locomotion
43:40
or the ability of fish to return to depth in a meaningful way so I I I I I do want to argue that point just a bit
43:46
uh because for years there has been a belief out there not from the scientific
43:52
Community but from the other side from the Dark Side in this case uh I dare say
43:59
Daryl konzi uh he's been saying for years putting up the cross to the
44:05
vampires come on but you know if anybody spent time uh
44:11
with Ste this is based on steelhead and salmon if anybody has spent time um in the Hatchery uh programs um more than
44:19
Daryl i' I'd like to meet him because put on some time he he has probably lifted more fish than anybody that I
44:27
know alive today in terms of transporting fish to spawning areas so you know we have to give him a bit of
44:34
credit for knowing something about that yeah yeah for sure he's going to be happy to hear that one yeah yeah yeah uh
44:41
but he has said forever that that we should not be clipping a fin and he equates it to humans you know when when
44:49
and anybody listening don't take this the wrong way this is a little bit graphic but but let me just he's saying
44:55
that when a child is born if you cut off a foot the child is going to have a difficult time getting to adulthood they
45:03
will succeed in most cases but it's going to be very difficult on them right
45:08
he says a fish is no different if you cut off one of these it's going to be a problem right interesting you make it
45:15
even more difficult you're what you're saying is kind of wrong in this it should be an adult you're like sometimes
45:22
you these fish well no okay talk fin clipping at that that I know I was
45:28
thinking of their their clipping later on in light they're clipping fish at I'm talking about clipping them at at an early stage of life or when you remove
45:35
when you remove an appendage from a living organism that that appendage is part of their propulsion system their
45:43
fueling whatever it is it's going to be a problem are they pectoral fins the ones up in the front those are the PE
45:50
fins most fish y if you take one pectoral fin off a lake throat what does that do to that fish
45:56
for the rest of his life it probably affects some some really detailed kinematics if you measured in in the lab
46:03
but in in nature it probably is pretty meaningless okay wow okay all right yeah
46:09
but in this case it was more like a trim you know you go for a haircut and it was it was just the the upper coddle so that
46:16
to me that's just a the coddle is the tail correct CLE yeah C ta Stephen have
46:22
we proven now some 30 40 50 years later
46:27
have we proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that fish do not necessarily feel
46:35
the same things that we do and I'm talking in terms of pain because the other part of this is also going to be
46:40
while the thing is stressed out already you just pulled it out of 30 ft of water it's got this Barrel trauma happening
46:46
then you walk it across the lake over there where those guys are and they're screaming yell they put it on a board you and now you cut something off of
46:53
this fish does it feel that that's it does that play into any of this at all
46:59
yeah so uh I am a fish pain skeptic and an animal and fish welfare advocate so
47:06
and I think we can separate those things and I think we need to because the evidence-base uh about fish pain is
47:13
pretty blurry uh and the reality is it's very difficult to study uh fish don't
47:18
talk they haven't been you know we we try to sit them on the couch and listen to them and they they just don't have anything to to say uh but it's really
47:26
really difficult to know so um what I do is focus on welfare and we know that for
47:34
example getting fish back in the water as quickly as possible is good for welfare we know that uh minimizing
47:41
injury so if if you're fishing for for fish and getting two or three treble
47:47
hooks in their their uh in their jaw then maybe you want to switch to some single hooks that kind of thing those
47:53
are the really pragmatic things that that one can do uh as opposed to you know to me the fish pain debate is
48:00
irrelevant what matters is fish welfare see in my opinion on that study that Minnesota DNR did to me just listening
48:08
to you guys the fin clipping would be minimalistic compared to the time out of the water yeah especially with my
48:13
experience of fishing for deep water fish which I don't do a whole lot but the key is get them back as soon as you
48:19
get they have a chance of going back so I I don't know that to me I agree with that y I'm going to maybe shock you and
48:27
it's only based on what you just said and Pete and I both looked at ourselves and had a little giggle are you aware
48:34
here we go well but I have to ask him yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so the province of
48:41
Ontario when you when you go into a fish Sanctuary that has a special uh fishing
48:48
conditions and one of those fishing conditions or two of those fishing conditions are you can only
48:56
angle for these fish with a single barbless
49:03
hook what does that mean to you Dr Stephen cook so the science behind uh with small
49:12
salmonids which is usually where these things are put in right it's usually um there's actually very little
49:19
evidence that barbless hooks influence mortality outcomes the reason that
49:25
barbless hooks have become so popular in catch and release is because Anglers
49:30
demand it Anglers say wow this is so much better from fish you must do it managers say well we don't care it's not
49:37
hurting but it's also not going to help so we'll go along with it so I Love You Stephen cook I love you you're a good
49:43
man most bar like there's there's a gazillion studies on barbless hooks and
49:49
sure you get the fish off more quickly but that is also context dependent and
49:55
so uh when I fish with a net I try to use barbless hooks certain kinds of Nets because the Barb gets caught in the net
50:01
and then you can't get it off there's other you know if I'm fishing larg moou with a ChatterBait Barb barbless it
50:07
doesn't matter you know a Barb isn't going to affect my ability to get that that fish off and it's certainly not
50:14
going to affect whether it lives or dies what dictates whether or not primarily the biggest driver is where a fish is
50:20
hooked and not surprisingly gullet throat uh um esophagus whatever you want
50:27
to call it fish that are hooked in that location those locations do relatively poorly and fish that are hooked in the
50:34
jaw do relatively well a barbless hook in the gullet is going to do just as
50:40
much damage as a barbed hook so it really comes when I can see it now I can
50:47
see the complaints now what is he talking about if if if if that hook is
50:52
barbed and it's down its throat I'm going to tear half of the fish is internals out pulling it out you're just
50:58
going to leave that hook in and cut the line that's what there so which brings me to the real reason I asked you this
51:05
question are you aware Steven just Steven's too in depth he didn't he didn't even start he didn't get your
51:12
your just did he so once again I'm going to ask you one more time if I say to you
51:18
Stephen you can only fish with a single barbless hook in this pond what is your
51:26
bait going to look like yeah show us that lure show us just walk us through what does that lure look like with a
51:31
single barbless hook yeah uh it's probably going to be something like a a
51:36
trout nibble or a fly that's really don't have many options the hook itself but the hook itself what's it going to
51:42
look like uh I'll describe it to me um presumably
51:51
it's going to be J in shape I'm not a big fan beinged coming cuz I'm going to
51:56
floor you style or or something like that you're going to fall on the floor make sure there's nothing around you cuz
52:03
you're going to fall all over it do you know what we in the province of Ontario
52:08
consider to be what qualifies as a single hook no I'm interested do you
52:13
know that hook that's on the end of uh MEPS bait the me lure do you know that
52:19
hook that's got those nice those nice three little points in the province of
52:25
tario that is considered a single hook you didn't know that did you no I didn't
52:31
I didn't these technicalities we just found out because and I'll tell you what
52:37
the shock was to us we've spent years fishing single barbless hooks sometimes
52:43
you don't have them with you and you're confronted with a situation where you need to fish single baress hook so what do we do we get our Cutters out and we
52:50
cut the two hooks off of the treble we say boom there we go problem solved for
52:56
years we didn't need to do that here in Ontario fascinating so as long as the the the as long as the barbs are pinched
53:04
you can use a treble hook as a single hook you can't use two treble hooks but you can use one is that bizarre yeah
53:13
yeah there's I wanted to ask you because I mean you I value your I had no idea
53:19
that's exactly look into it we've had M&R officials on the show we've said that they said yeah that's single hook
53:25
because in their opinion it's all one piece right all three of those things are all welded together or in some cases
53:32
two of them are on one wire that's a single hook to them we just came from the Mirchi River and there's just one
53:37
hook that you squeeze that barb down if you put a trouble and squeezed all three down you'd be busted in no time at all you know what I mean so this is the only
53:44
jurisdiction in the country that thinks that that is a single hook bizarre just
53:50
I thought I'd let you in on that but anyways we're way we're way way off topic so okay so so your your concern
53:59
with that video is that maybe they they spent too much time handling the fish you think potent potentially but again
54:05
there and so it was suggested that they were fishing pretty far away from the area where the fish were processed and
54:12
where the pen was and you know I would assume that they recorded the time that
54:18
each between capture and when the individual went in and then you could include that as a factor in the analysis
54:24
and so that is something that is actually useful information so if we assume that that is essentially
54:30
simulating air exposure so you know I know most Anglers wouldn't be clipping the fin or measuring them but that's
54:37
neither here nor there in my opinion it's that air exposure in general handling time and so if they recorded it
54:44
they would have caught some fish right next right right beside some fish might have taken longer you get a good
54:50
gradient and then analytically you could say what is the effect of time as a as a
54:57
factor in influencing mortality so so you would look at if they did that and you're assuming because they were
55:03
scientists they would have done that right yep okay so let's just for the sake of arguing say that it was 10
55:09
minutes which is bizarre 5 minutes it was 5 minutes so it was 5 minutes from the time they were pulled out of the
55:15
water to the time they were put in that basket so when you have the mortality
55:20
rate that they had which was like crazy so you look at that study and you say
55:26
okay all right so we've established that with five minutes of
55:31
airtime these fish can't survive so let's do it again now and let's see
55:36
about doing it in one minute or whatever is that kind of the way the science works inette exactly and that's about
55:43
the frame of inference so if all of those fish were sampled and and held at
55:49
at held in air or held at atmospheric pressure for you know three to five
55:55
minutes or even one to five minutes that's the context in which those data need to be interpreted it wasn't a just
56:02
a it was a barot trauma study in those waters for those fish in those dissolved
56:08
oxygen conditions for fish that were captured and held in air for that period
56:13
of time and so asking the question what would the mortality rate be if those
56:20
fish were only exposed to air for 15 seconds or 30 seconds which is about what I saw in the the uh the video that
56:27
was posted the YouTube video uh they seem seem to be and maybe there's some fancy editing but seem to be 15 to 30 30
56:34
seconds or so um you know that's a different question um and so and that's
56:41
where the managers would W you know managers care about those details one
56:46
paper one study rarely changes policy or practice it's about a burden of evidence
56:54
a p of papers consultation and engagement with the angling Community
56:59
potentially with rights holders indigenous groups depending on the context um discussion with peers so the
57:06
managers would be going back and forth with their own science advisors they might seek out some external
57:13
opinion I wish if I wrote one paper it had the potential to change policy and
57:18
practice it does not slow slow process I was going to say how the hell did you
57:24
ever get seven 00 peer reviewed papers on that basis there were not 700 policy
57:31
changes exactly exactly so okay so then at best we can
57:36
look at this H and say that perhaps the
57:41
um scientists involved in that particular one of uh maybe maybe they
57:49
went back and and did what you just said and maybe they re they did a redo saying hey you know know what 5 minutes is too
57:56
long or whatever that time is we need to we need to do this again and see if we can get it down to a shorter period of
58:01
time see if that helps that was not indicated obviously in in the uh
58:06
critique of that video it was just said there you see scientists don't know what
58:12
they're doing why would why do we let them you know manage our fishery and Wildlife why that's what I took
58:19
exception to this more than anything else because there was a lot of factors first of all how do we know that they
58:24
only Source One location you know maybe those fish because of their condition
58:30
down under the ice maybe they were already stressed out maybe they were in
58:35
a situation maybe maybe food was an issue maybe temperature I God only knows
58:41
what was the issue with that bunch of fish yeah you could be Lake to Lake every lake is different every lake is different at a different time right and
58:48
and so I I just think there was so much more to that that could have been done
58:54
that by the way could have been very positive because as Anglers and you know this we're always concerned about barot
59:00
trauma we're always like what's that magic number it's not just depths but what's the temperature what's the
59:06
perfect temperature where you can expect uh the mortality rate to go up you know like we're always thinking that way so I
59:12
think this would have been a perfect opportunity to take that that DNR uh
59:17
science and and question it and see if we can get them to say yeah but we did
59:24
it again the following day and we moved location and we did this and that they might have done that for all we know
59:31
right right y they you go further down in that article
59:38
there's actually three Lakes they did three sort of one-offs and in fact the
59:44
the the the one water body they had a fair amount of mortality you probably can't see it on there but these these
59:50
other bars you can see the high level the high bar there is recovered and the low one is is non-releasable or died so
59:59
it was one lake is where things went poorly and that's the one they used it
1:00:05
also means you're putting bounds on you know if that's worst case scenario if you keep them at surface for five
1:00:10
minutes and air expose them and take your time getting them back in worst
1:00:16
case scenario might be X now the question is what what are those
1:00:21
thresholds because that's what's useful for Anglers how much is too much and so then
1:00:28
you start working backwards from there in many ways and and scientists are are
1:00:34
bad for this we want to share what we're doing as soon as we know something but sometimes we jump the gun and share
1:00:40
before it's finished so to me this was sharing a pilot study or a snippet when
1:00:47
what we really need is the full study which you know or or maybe the next
1:00:52
study if you will um and also them indicating our plan next is to do X Y
1:00:58
and Z I think that alone probably would have assuaged all the the concern saying we're not done here we know there's some
1:01:06
you know contextual issues that need to be thought about we want to make sure this is as realistic as possible so
1:01:12
we're going to go back and do this part uh in a a different way was that DNR
1:01:18
study U done to sway people from just don't fish for crappy the ice a deep
1:01:25
crappie is that what they started with their intent that was the intent of the of the whole study was that you know
1:01:30
maybe we should reconsider U okay this whole thing and
1:01:35
and here's why maybe they made it I don't know that was an independent production using using DNR science right
1:01:44
and there might have been ulterior motives we don't know there might have been all kind just like there were
1:01:49
ulterior motives in the other video a ton of ulterior motives
1:01:55
I'll get here in a moment in my opinion but I want to ask you a question as one of the in my I think anyways I correct
1:02:04
me if I'm wrong um you're one of the most qualified people for this question
1:02:09
because you're also an angler see there's a lot of scientists that aren't necessarily as hardcore as you are in terms of fishing
1:02:17
and and angling and and sheer enjoyment of it so my question to you is quite simple do you
1:02:22
believe that a a catch and release style assuming
1:02:28
that everybody's performing it properly is more effective in open water than it
1:02:34
is when it's hard water in other words winter versus Summer where are the best results right now as far as the
1:02:41
scientific Community is concerned are we getting better results from open water
1:02:47
fishing or ice fishing with our releases yeah we know way more about Open Water
1:02:54
uh there are pro for every ice fishing study there's probably 50 Open Water
1:02:59
studies ice fishing research other than a handful of studies I would say most of
1:03:05
it's happened in the last five or six years and uh partly that's because of
1:03:10
the challenges with doing it we're being more creative uh and the YouTuber was
1:03:16
creative using uh the the forward facing sonar as a means to to look at at reascent uh we're using chainsaws to cut
1:03:24
Nets into the ice so that we can you know give the fish the opportunity to get to depth we're using you know Nets
1:03:30
that allow them to get down to the bottom as opposed to using tanks on the on the surface and so on um but again
1:03:37
it's context matters so much so Open Water Well if I release a bone fish and there sharks everywhere uh that's not so
1:03:45
good right so it every the with Catch
1:03:50
and Release it's one of those things where we keep saying it depends and anybody that says it depends is full of
1:03:56
it that doesn't say that is full of it because it's very difficult to
1:04:02
generalize um there's a couple things we can say we can say that catching a hook in the a fish hooked in the throat is
1:04:09
more likely to die than a fish hooked superficially uh air exposure isn't
1:04:14
great for fish so try and minimize that hot or cold right in terms hot or
1:04:20
cold um hot uh hot water usually makes things
1:04:25
worse for fish we don't know a whole lot about that really cold end ice fishing
1:04:31
but as long as the fish don't get damaged or Frozen and get back in the water quickly they seem to do fine but
1:04:38
we don't have a whole lot of long-term Under Ice survival data we sort of have
1:04:43
24 hours or you know we saw them swim to the bottom and we assume they're okay
1:04:49
that's kind of what we've got to work with there what about so let's just take a troat for instance a rainbow trout and
1:04:55
going on anes but not quite winter so spring summer fall we're going to throw
1:05:01
rainbow trout back in the nice cold water cool water periods versus mid August let's just say the hot water are
1:05:07
they have a better chance of survival in that colder water or is the metabol is their body temperature going up help
1:05:12
them when it's comes summertime Etc is there anything to that yeah cooler cooler colder for cold water fish is
1:05:19
better um their yes their metabolism is is faster but that doesn't necessarily
1:05:25
mean they recover more quickly it means that their engine is basically empty
1:05:30
they have spent everything they have on that fight and so a long air exposure
1:05:35
time or you release them and they're being chased around by an otter or something like that they're not going to
1:05:40
have any gas in the tank left uh to do what they need to do so uh so at
1:05:47
warm here's how I like to think about it fish will tell you how they're doing if you bring in a fish and you try and
1:05:53
release it and it sits there in your hands and just stares at you and does not try and get away from you something
1:06:00
is up you've probably you know maybe you fought the fish for too long maybe you took two or three uh extra pictures um
1:06:08
so change things the you know every anger knows when a fish is spunky or not
1:06:14
uh vigorous or not and what I like is you can change your behavior in real
1:06:20
time you can say okay I'm going to I'm going to switch rods I'm going to switch from my my seven weight to my eight
1:06:25
weight or I'm going to switch from 10 pound test to 14 pound test and I'm
1:06:31
going to see if I can get that fish in a little bit more quickly next time and see if it makes a difference oh sure
1:06:36
enough that fish now is is spunky and and I've adjusted my gear to to ensure
1:06:43
that that fish is in the best possible condition at time of release and when water temperatures are hot that's when
1:06:49
you really need to be concerned about air exposure where you really need to be concerned about quick handling and and
1:06:55
minimizing your interaction with the fish uh a little bit off topic but I I
1:07:01
have to I going to R this by you anyways because I know we're going there's going to be a deluge of emails and messages
1:07:06
coming in after this airs we uh we produced a a program um that's going to
1:07:12
be airing I think in a week or two uh the um uh Franny Smallmouth it just
1:07:19
aired oh did it air just aired this week that's correct Okay so we were fishing
1:07:25
for big smallies and one of the fish that we hooked up
1:07:31
with almost immediately after it got hooked up
1:07:37
it ran into some problems with a giant musky wow and see if stepen was a true
1:07:43
fan he'd already know that because it aired on the weekend he was in Africa for God's sake
1:07:49
okay that's the only excuse Sten they didn't have it on the air Canada play you know maybe next time
1:07:56
yeah so uh it's on YouTube now um so anyways um so very early in the fight
1:08:03
I'm talking in the first 15 seconds the fish unfortunately
1:08:10
got chomped on by a giant 50 incher gigantic musky and this musky like just
1:08:18
took us all over the St Lawrence and you know screaming and yelling like a bunch
1:08:23
of little girls but anyways when we got finally got the musky tired out it
1:08:31
slowly we were able to get it up to the boat and up to the surface where we saw
1:08:37
that this giant musky had a tail and a bit of a head sticking out of its Yap
1:08:43
and it was the small mouth and when he saw us at that moment he opened up and he swam away so we we brought the fish
1:08:52
into the boat and it was in tatters I mean it it was not pretty right Billy
1:08:57
connley me was in tatters it was in tatters and we looked at it and we you
1:09:03
know we hmed and Hau a little bit what to do and we we decided you know what let's put it back and and see what
1:09:11
happens now we did say on camera this fish will probably Sur like we were a b
1:09:16
like we were scientists right yeah no no this fish will yeah it's going to survive for sure like we knew anything we just didn't want to kill it it it had
1:09:24
already been traumatized and we wanted to give it a chance and and so we put it back in the water what's the chances of
1:09:31
that fish surviving when when when its flesh has been clearly ripped open what
1:09:37
are the chances of a fish like that surviving or will it just be food again as soon as it goes in there that's
1:09:44
possible but fish if a fish is healthy to start with and is you know nice plump fish in good condition it's immune
1:09:51
function immune system should be just fine and it'll start to heal and repair as long as it hasn't bled out too much
1:09:58
it's probably most at risk for those first few days where it might get a fungal infection it just sort of again
1:10:05
it depends but uh um I like to air in the side of caution um sometimes our
1:10:10
permits requires to Bonk a fish like that and bury them above the high water line I'd rather see these fish put back
1:10:17
so that those nutrients you know there's plenty of snapping turtles and uh other scavengers out there that if the animal
1:10:25
dies I want those nutrients back in the system uh so that's that's my strategy you see that we've been arguing for
1:10:32
forever and I don't want to put you on the spot but you know there's a regulation that say states that if you're uh doing a Shore lunch and you
1:10:39
know you you gut your fish and you clean your fish and stuff do not throw it in the lake no it's illegal to throw it
1:10:46
illegal you got to carry it above the waterline and dispose of it somewhere I don't even know where when you're out in
1:10:51
the middle of nowhere I don't know where that places but we've always been of the belief that that is going to feed
1:10:58
somebody or somebody something whether it's it's gulls from above or or Turtles
1:11:04
from below or other fish otter May otter why do you think like I don't get it
1:11:12
like help me help me with this I'm I'm going I wasn't in the room where that regulation was crafted but I'm going to
1:11:17
guess that the intent was more about limiting odor issues around Urban centers or boat docks or marinas um and
1:11:27
also leading to wasted time for cosos so you can imagine conservation officers
1:11:33
getting a call that oh there's been a fish kill there's a pile of dead fish or carcasses please come investigate so uh
1:11:40
and uh potentially bringing in you know unwanted Vermin like raccoons and and so
1:11:45
on so the idea is you know burying above the high water line addresses some of those issues but that's again you know I
1:11:51
I have no real you know uh should fish nutrients be back in the lake sure uh
1:11:58
are the Fisheries in Ontario going to collapse because you know because we bury our walleye you know our um uh
1:12:05
walleye carcasses carcass carcasses above the high water line no so it's kind of a it's a weird one isn't it see
1:12:13
to me I think it's a perfectly healthy natural way to everybody thinks continue
1:12:19
the cycle natural thought of that you know there isn't by the way that that small Mo that an caught it had zero
1:12:26
blood coming off it it was just cuts it was just like there was lacerations but no blood coming out there yeah C so my
1:12:33
my thought is that that musky knew that he's done that about 10 times he says okay now they're going to throw it back and I got an easy meal now with no
1:12:39
hooking him smartest musky in the St lence River oh God uh talk about the the ultimate
1:12:47
fishing experience though and and that's what that's why you got to love fishing like where else are you going to get
1:12:53
that kind of that kind of story story where you see nature at its ugliest best
1:12:59
you know this this poor little small mouth minding its own business we come
1:13:05
along and and and interact with it and everything's going good and then all of a sudden just when it thought it was at
1:13:11
its worst boom things come in and get really bad with this giant musky like it's it's I get goosebumps just thinking
1:13:18
about that that was cool that was a cool [Music] one
1:13:26
[Music] we interrupt this program to bring you
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latest fishing Canada giveaways and now back to the
1:14:01
episode Stephen you said something very quickly on that on the video we talking the YouTube video is uh your team at
1:14:08
Carlton are they using forward facing sonar yet for any of your studies uh we are not but I have
1:14:15
colleagues that are and most of it most work so far has been in the context of
1:14:21
habitat assessment although other you know we're using sides scan sonar for that as well you know um the
1:14:29
the yeah short answer no but there are uh there are now two or three studies
1:14:35
out there that have looked at the extent to which it increases catchability
1:14:40
um you I think there's studies all from the US uh I think some Reservoir studies
1:14:46
uh and I don't think at least the ones done so far have shown much of a difference so it's not like you catch
1:14:53
more fish uh if you're using it I think you might catch different fish fish that were otherwise perhaps hidden um so you
1:15:02
know there there's that side of the equation I think that's what I when I think about front facing sonar and uh
1:15:09
you know you can find fish where you couldn't find them before I think so smalles in particular I got a feeling
1:15:16
you guys are gon to be using that in the upcoming it's it sounds to me like a perfect scientific tool you know oh my
1:15:22
God it's better for science it is for Anglers as far as I'm I watched it very quickly I watched Roland Martin's coming
1:15:27
up show we had at Roland Martins show here from the US and he threw his you know that big net that he throws out there did you see that that dropped over
1:15:33
top of all the saw you can see everything down there man he caught his bait throwing that net and watched it all happen so so you know any of the
1:15:40
naysayers that say it's unfair and and and this and that well it's not even
1:15:46
worth debating because the same could have said been said about Graphite Rods the same could have been said about
1:15:51
electric motors the same was said about I mean s scanning Sid scan it doesn't
1:15:56
matter it's it's a new tool that technology has bestowed upon us and we
1:16:03
embrace it and I just wondered if he was using it because I think there'd be uh so back to Bar trauma we're way off well
1:16:09
back to the what caused this whole debate in the first place so now you you know is there anything else about that
1:16:16
that video that you saw from from a scientific standpoint that you want to debate or at least throw out there yeah
1:16:21
I I thought that the and I have to connect it to the YouTube video there was concern that the fish were unable to
1:16:27
get back down because of the width of the net right uh and I I think that's valid especially for you know fish
1:16:33
bumping into mesh uh being unsure of what that is and then that you know maybe getting a little bit entangled and
1:16:40
having to circle around and head back up so uh I think that having wider uh wider
1:16:47
diameter uh Nets or pens is always a good idea um so that's more context
1:16:54
right so there may have been challenges for those fish reaching depth but again
1:17:01
hard to tease out the what was driven by the long air exposure or handling time
1:17:07
versus what was a consequence of that that net uh we've done work with barot
1:17:12
trauma and Nets and walleye and had no problem with them getting back down and we were using Nets that were maybe about
1:17:19
a meter in diameter 3 feet uh and not having a problem so I I think it's probably the impairment rather than the
1:17:25
net diameter that's the big thing but if it's a concern and we think that that that might be then maybe we go with
1:17:32
wider uh wider Nets or it might even be species driven right I know walleye
1:17:37
definitely go straight down when you throw them babies in they they're headed to the bottom maybe maybe you know maybe
1:17:43
crappy need a little more who knows but but it's a valid point you know and it
1:17:49
was a simple observation we all saw it and and uh uh we'd all come up with the
1:17:54
same conclusions that maybe the net yeah why yeah exactly why not a bigger net yeah could have been to summarize it's
1:18:01
not that it was bad science the danger is using that science in a bad
1:18:07
way go there you go so if as long as the
1:18:13
science is presented in in an authentic way with all the details and caveats
1:18:18
around it that is the context in which the findings apply if a manager then takes that and uses it to roll out some
1:18:26
kind of uber restrictive regulation that you know based on a con a specific
1:18:31
context that's different than you know than than what most Anglers encounter that's where the challenge is and you
1:18:38
don't see that happen because Anglers have access to the same science
1:18:43
materials that we do these days and as I said you know management bodies want to get it right they don't you know the the
1:18:50
governor and the premier uh they get lots of letters as is uh nobody wants to be you know making big issues out of out
1:18:58
of you know a a crappy regulation right uh you know leave that to the Fisheries
1:19:04
managers and that means them doing their due diligence uh and engaging with
1:19:10
Anglers that's why we have in Ontario we have the fisheries management Zone councils where there would be discussions and those councils are
1:19:16
populated by and large with people from the recreational fishing sector it's Lodge owners and God and multi Anglers
1:19:25
stakeholders they've all so so important um so here's my take on that before we
1:19:32
switch over to the video guy um I would have liked to have seen But but but
1:19:39
because there were ulterior motives to this critiquing of this scientific video
1:19:46
um I would have liked to have seen the scientist say at some some point okay
1:19:53
you know what this is what's happening with these fish that we catching at 28 ft or whatever the the depth
1:19:59
was with these same circumstances the time uh in open air the fin clipping the
1:20:06
net what all of those things put together what would happen if we caught a fish in six
1:20:11
feet can we catch one in six feet guys let's just see what happens if if we get the same result or is that 6 foot
1:20:18
because the whole premise of this was to see about the pressure how fish deal
1:20:24
with pressure to me they haven't really proven anything because they haven't
1:20:29
compared it to less pressure but in that case in that case specific to crappy you
1:20:35
won't catch them in six feet of water and ice of course of course but but that would really give us the definitive
1:20:42
answer that here's that magic number it's 28 ft and we should not be fishing
1:20:47
in fact we should not be fishing these fish at all because here look here's what happens at 6 and 8 and 10 and 12
1:20:53
and 14 that video to me that DNR s really didn't give me much other than
1:20:59
the fact that under all of those circumstances I.E the 28 ft the amount
1:21:06
of time out of the water the measuring the clipping and then putting them in a
1:21:12
a tight hooped net resulted in a disaster so as an angler I'm never going
1:21:18
to do that I know I'm never going to do that cuz that's all wrong bad that's bad
1:21:24
that's bad I don't think it proved anything I don't think we still have a clear picture of the barrel trauma that
1:21:33
that may or may not cause a high mortality rate in our Catch and Release through the ice and by the way that's
1:21:39
also through the ice and I'm I I would throw that into that equation too so I'm not going to fish 28 ft I'm certainly
1:21:45
not going to do it through the ice I'm not going to uh walk them 100 yards over that way to put them in another holding
1:21:52
area certainly not going to handle them and fin clip them and I'm not going to do all that stuff but beyond that it
1:21:58
really doesn't prove anything to me right that's my opinion I wonder if the
1:22:04
Stephen if they didn't have the net so let's just say they did everything the way they did it and they instead of that
1:22:09
net being there they just had a hole that they Dro them down and they had 10 cameras all around there shooting around
1:22:15
you think there'd be a different result those fish swimming down yeah that so there's two questions right the reason
1:22:21
they wanted to hold the fish in the net was to quantify mortality and I assume
1:22:26
I'm uncertain I assume they held them overnight so 24-hour mortal to get a 24-hour mortality estimate right um and
1:22:34
so both of those things are relevant you know what fish are unable to at what depth are fish unable to get down and no
1:22:41
matter what depth you're caught at are you going to survive 24 hours or
1:22:47
not and that wasn't proven on either video exactly that's the point that's the point I want to make we science I'm
1:22:52
going to try and you know not use any derogatory comments here but the other guy who authored the video um disputing
1:23:03
the first video he hasn't proven anything to me number one you guys hit
1:23:08
it right on the head how long did those fish survive that went down that we saw going down on on the on the image on the
1:23:16
screen we don't know yeah all we know is that we saw an image of a fish that swam
1:23:22
to the bottom the other thing the scientific study had from my count at
1:23:28
least nine people on location each one of them performing a certain function of
1:23:34
the study but more importantly it was a collaborative effort between people who
1:23:39
kept an eye on the authen authentication of the study uh everything was above
1:23:45
board the other one who's calling himself now the Savior to fish kind
1:23:51
because he's the only one who gets it apparently he's the only one who knows you can't hold a fish out of water for
1:23:57
very long he's he's figured that out us idiots haven't figured that out yet but
1:24:03
he's by himself I don't know how many fish it took to get the 12 that survived it might have been2 I don't know that because is all
1:24:11
editing so I have no proof whatsoever that his 12 fish a number one only took
1:24:18
12 samples to get 12 to swim down and how many of those survived we don't know
1:24:25
they might have all died for all I know maybe in in another 10 seconds they would have slowly started drifting up
1:24:31
who knows so I I I'm skeptical and and you know then couple that with throwing
1:24:38
the scientific Community under the bus and claiming himself to be the Savior I
1:24:43
just I I found it totally disgusting and I don't know anybody now I said I wasn't going to get into
1:24:50
this but I got to tell you I have had the the pleasure or displeasure one time in my life of spending of of breathing
1:24:57
the same air as this person uh at a function first time I ever met him and
1:25:02
he acted no differently in that circum you know what I'm talking about um you
1:25:08
know he acted like a a total buffoon uh at that time just like he did
1:25:13
on that video claiming himself to be the Savior well you know I I really question that kind of experimentation and and trying to
1:25:21
prove that we were all wrong and the other thing I took exception to yeah damn it I'll tell you right now he threw
1:25:27
us under the bus in that video as well um us being our uh
1:25:32
industry the TV fishing guys saying that we don't know a thing about catch and
1:25:38
release uh and we you know hold our fish out of the water way too long and he
1:25:43
knows he knows how to do it right though he is like I said he's is a [Laughter]
1:25:50
savior anyways um stepen let's go back to that video because one thing that did
1:25:55
intrigue me of all his his little studying is that Release Technique that he did yeah when he dipped the fish Mo
1:26:02
uh tail first down got the water in the M then turned does that work do you know if that works or like I've never done it before I've never seen it before so I'd
1:26:08
never seen that before so I have no clue so so you how long have you been in the science business here's the deal if you
1:26:16
push yeah a while if you push a fish into water or a fish is oriented down
1:26:22
downwards it has these things called opercula and the bubbles will the water
1:26:28
will displace it so you don't need to fill the the Gap so I think it's just that that that has no merit uh it it
1:26:35
just doesn't make sense but uh okay I was wondering because that's the one thing that I looked at I said well I'm thinking okay i' only been fishing for
1:26:42
like 50 something years and I've never done that maybe that is the think you should do that but but it just yeah I
1:26:49
just I don't know so I just wondered I wanted a scientific no note of it's just another pce work that day for for those
1:26:54
12 fish it worked for him for that day right so well it looked good on on on the screen that I will give you me on
1:27:01
that that's kind of cool the thing it's like those guys who were cheating at the
1:27:06
that tournament one time filling filling putting water in the fish's mouth and closing it when they put it in the tank
1:27:13
anyways I the the the point in a beer bottle exactly there you go you don't want to put it upside down
1:27:20
like uh the bottom line is uh I I I don't think it's good for our business our industry our new Anglers I don't
1:27:28
think that kind of work is going to in the long run I don't think it's going to
1:27:34
play well and um I I certainly hope it's not going to be a trend where all of a
1:27:40
sudden everybody is a scientist and everybody knows how to handle our fish
1:27:47
and we don't the rest of us morons don't we just have no idea we're clueless I
1:27:53
just hope that it's not a trend because it's going to get ugly it's going to be disgusting we can we can all work
1:27:59
together sure we can love I would love to get in the boat with Steven Cook and just for a couple of days you just go for it and say stepen says this I say
1:28:05
that we work together and uh that'd be great you know what I mean and even then even then at best we can't call
1:28:14
it conclusive that this is right and that is wrong what you can do is use
1:28:21
experience trial and error multiple studies peer reviewed I mean I could go
1:28:28
on and on you use all of those things to hopefully help us manage Wildlife better
1:28:33
what does it take to make something conclusive so you're doing a study in fishing and you're going to say okay
1:28:39
this is pretty is there a percentage number is there something some kind of gauge that says okay this science has
1:28:45
now proven this yeah we tend not to use the word prove um because there's always
1:28:51
uncertainty and unless it's sort of a you know a a maxim or something like
1:28:56
Evolution or gravity or and so on so we we tend to talk about the strength of
1:29:02
evidence uh and it's it's when that uncertainty starts to get to the point
1:29:08
where you know we're quite certain that mortality is X and when we do our
1:29:13
modeling because the mortality rate may be quite High what matters is how that feeds into population models so uh and
1:29:21
they will do the math and come back and say you know what for this species in this system 5% mortality with Catch and
1:29:28
Release given the amount of fishing effort is problematic but in that Lake maybe we can handle 30% you know so so
1:29:35
all of this just gets fed into management models but also education and I think that's the other side of thing
1:29:40
there was this assumption in the other video that everything's going to lead to regulation that's not how it works we
1:29:47
educate and when that doesn't work we regulate ah very I like that I like that
1:29:54
a lot that's a good way of say it we could go on and on all day long I know can we not just ask him like about
1:29:59
fizzing and stuff like that oh hurry up he's got to he's got I got to ask you about fizzing he's never going to come
1:30:05
back for God work be our last question does fizzing work and do you say people do it or Anglers do it or Anglers don't
1:30:11
do it how's that yeah again context matters I'm G to give you an example uh
1:30:16
and maybe we can talk about this one more in the future but we just wrapped up a study with smallmouth bass
1:30:22
and we Fizz them and we release them over small mouthy depths so about 30t of
1:30:28
water and then we released some in the middle of the lake over 100 plus feet of
1:30:34
water the fizzed fish go to the bottom like if you release a fish in 100 meters
1:30:40
of water or sorry 100 feet or 100 meters of water that's been fizzed it goes to the bottom that is new information for
1:30:48
all of us and then when we started um a little bit on face Ste stop for a second
1:30:54
I got to ask you is that dangerous for the fish yeah that's very dangerous for the fish that's got to be like could
1:30:59
kill the fish yeah yeah we sent down drones to get uh yeah drones to see the
1:31:05
fish at that depth and they're just sitting on the bottom they they look like uh they're on their their way out
1:31:10
not surprisingly so again it's Fizz but don't and the
1:31:16
reason that that is um with bass tournaments now they seem to be moving away from live release boat
1:31:22
where you go release your fish on your own and they kind of point and say go that way there's nice deep water over
1:31:28
there um so deep but you still want to be above habitat where they would make a
1:31:33
living so 30 35 feet fine but don't go over the drop
1:31:38
off yeah and so that's an example of where context matters uh the the fish
1:31:44
that were fizzed and released over shallow shallo is water did just fine uh
1:31:50
but those released over deep water didn't so so fizzing does work is what
1:31:56
you're saying if they're released over the proper depths yeah there's there's pretty decent evidence of long-term uh
1:32:03
long-term survival of a variety of marine and freshwater species so yeah uh
1:32:10
the the bigger issue though is what does that fish had to deal with while it is at the surface so um if it's a fish
1:32:18
that's been in a live well for a number of hours if it's bouncing around because it's got problems with equilibrium so uh
1:32:25
the consensus is to Fizz your fish when you get like when they're showing signs
1:32:30
of barot trauma as opposed to waiting till the end of the day because they'll have been upside down in the live well
1:32:36
and getting getting beaten up and and so on that's amazing super super quick then super super quick a descending device
1:32:44
because I experienced this myself a descending device I had a walleye caught out of deep water she was upside down in
1:32:49
the live well I dropped her down and I watched it on the ps30 our pan Optics our first pan I watched the whole thing
1:32:54
the fish went R like that I released the thing popped off at 30t where I had it set but it was over about 60 or 70 ft of
1:32:59
water and she go straight down there too that wasn't a fizzed fish would that be the same scenario that these descending
1:33:05
devices will send that fish right to the bottom too you gotta be careful I don't know that's a good
1:33:11
question bu one in look into yep hey I I just want to say something to end here
1:33:16
and that's that you know I I do think there's an opportunity here and that's to carry on the conversation between
1:33:23
Anglers and managers and scientists abut and perhaps we as the science Community
1:33:29
have failed we have failed to be as available as needed to be able to answer these questions so I'm super
1:33:35
appreciative to folks like you for for bringing the science Community out of our Ivory Tower and giving us an
1:33:42
opportunity to to interact with a with the community so really thankful for
1:33:47
that well case in point with this this episode we contact three other scientists after you weren't available
1:33:54
they all turned us down saying they weren't comfortable with this so yeah great message great message to deliver
1:34:01
to the scientific Community we talk to &r all the time about this is that they
1:34:07
get a bum wrap and one of the reasons they get a bum wrap is because they have shrouded themselves in secrecy and they
1:34:15
are Untouchable and and and they don't communicate all the wonderful things that they're doing they don't tell
1:34:21
anybody the only things you know about them is they're busting people and they they're doing all these nasty things but
1:34:27
that's not the truth the truth is they're doing a whole bunch of wonderful things but they refuse to communicate
1:34:33
that to people and we need to bring that out yeah across the you know the Midwest
1:34:38
where I'm really familiar with Minnesota DNR Wisconsin DNR and New York DC M&R
1:34:45
Quebec colleagues fantastic we are so fortunate to live in a part of the world where we have science-based B fisheries
1:34:52
management but there's also a lot of Engagement with those different stakeholder groups to make sure that
1:34:59
everybody understands uh why things are done when they're done and that we have
1:35:04
people that are working on our behalf I don't mind you know there's some things I don't like to see my tax dollars spent
1:35:09
on but having my dollars go to support the men and women that work for our fish and wildlife agencies in North America
1:35:16
you can have my money no problem no problem y stepen uh wonderful prog thank
1:35:21
you very much we will uh we'll stay in touch for sure hopefully we'll run are you going to be at the Toronto Sportsman
1:35:27
show coming up can't do it we've got a a professional conference at the same time
1:35:32
I got to think about changing those dates yeah it would have been a great opportunity for you to come out and talk to folks and and touch and feel and let
1:35:39
them know that uh anyways we'll run into you I'm sure um thank you very much for joining us you take care of yourself
1:35:45
thank you Dr Stephen cook uh I I guess if there is the the the prototypical
1:35:53
scientist marine scientist he's the guy yeah in the dictionary they have a picture of him right next very
1:35:59
knowledgeable very very confident in what he's talking about still has you know he still he listens he'll listen to
1:36:06
everybody he watched that video like we did he listens to us he listen to Anglers he's an angler which really helps that you know what I mean I think
1:36:12
that's the key that's huge absolutely I don't think it's a a necessity no but I
1:36:17
think it really is the key because he's already asking himself questions before
1:36:23
the experiments even start based on an anger's Viewpoint you know what I mean
1:36:28
stuff that like that barbarous hook stuff he was talking about know the rule shocked we shocked but the stuff about
1:36:33
you know in the hooked in the throat doesn't matter if it's Barbers or not you know me so it's interesting stuff
1:36:38
it's gone the fish is gone the minute it it goes beyond the outer perimeters I think it's it's gone we we've known that
1:36:46
but we've known that since the beginning of time right we've always known that yeah and they and those fish released
1:36:51
properly or they look like they release properly but who knows what happens when they get down there too right those fish we didn't know then and we don't know
1:36:57
now the only thing we know for sure I want to be labor at this point is that every fish released is a fish that has a
1:37:04
chance to live again come on that's right even that smly that's all tattered in
1:37:09
tatters be interest interesting to see what sort of comments we get that be the best Flo's going to catch that fish next
1:37:15
year say hey boys I C your small MTH he was a wonderful episode uh I hope
1:37:21
uh that we've cleared up some of uh the uh mean that's a huge sub we could talk for hours on that confusion going on
1:37:28
about this this whole Barat trauma thing and Science in general and uh no there
1:37:33
is no savior out there no no Messiah and no and and I think we were very kind to
1:37:41
that we did not really jump all over it uh it suffice to say that that the
1:37:47
conditions that the scientists used in that video were totally different than
1:37:52
the conditions that that one YouTuber used in his video so you can't even
1:37:58
compare those two as far as I'm concerned yeah well said that's it yeah
1:38:04
um what else don't forget hey don't forget these wonderful shirts a bunch of [ __ ] I believe they're a limited
1:38:11
edition and that they are flying now that they're finally up on the site you're telling me if there's a order for
1:38:17
a thousand comes in you're not going to get some more printed up that's no we've got the next one already in in line as
1:38:22
soon as these can you hit that button again for me there's a bunch of [ __ ] thank you why is he always trying to discredit
1:38:29
me I want you to make some money you got TR to discredit me always no I'm an
1:38:35
honorable man and I'm telling you's what's the number I'm not going to give you what that number is but I'm telling you right now that the next one is
1:38:41
already in line and is waiting for somebody to push the button is there a time limit to if they can't get this no
1:38:48
it's when they run out they are out so if you don't have yours I would
1:38:54
strongly and because I'm not going to play favorites I strongly recommend that you get one you know I already have one
1:38:59
don't you well then you might want to wear it every once in a while I'm going to wait till summer cuz right now this is a bunch of [ __ ] weather right
1:39:05
here I don't like ITN this is exactly the type of we you want be wear I was fishing on Lake Ontario two days ago in
1:39:13
a boat n ridiculous anyways uh get them while they're hot and get all the other
1:39:19
goodies that are on the store and fishing canada.com uh of course go to
1:39:24
that because it is also the portal the gateway to your next fishing adventure and not only Adventure see folks
1:39:30
misunderstand when I say it's the Gateway the portal to your next fishing doesn't mean that you go there because
1:39:35
you want to book a trip to somewhere ah they're taking a literal those are people who are taking a literal right
1:39:42
anything anything fish they could book a trip they our can they ever or it could
1:39:49
win one if they go to the contest we always we're always giving away trips might as well bring a garment up there that you won too right well okay I
1:39:55
didn't want to say that they might even win a boat motor and trailer to take it coming up jeez you know that's it I'll
1:40:02
be out for the entire uh crew Volvo over there behind the camera uh Nicky look at Nikki V very very bored right like he no
1:40:11
he's fascinated with this whole little thing that's don't misunderstand it's a
1:40:16
it's the anyways uh Nikki V with his headset I looks very looks like he's got a headb looks like Flo with his visor on
1:40:22
right there man and uh of course Mr Dean Taylor on the board uh on behalf of the
1:40:29
them and Peter Bowman next to me I'm Manel Bola thanks folks talk to you next [Music]
1:40:41
[Applause] [Music]
1:40:48
time
#Biological Sciences
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#Outdoors